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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 341
As a customer I would appreciate it if with a catalog (print or online) it was mentioned whether or not installing a part would increase the performance to the point where the air gun would require an appropriate PAL. Not having a PAL yet I would consider it my responsibility to ask and make sure that a part I'm installing wouldn't increase performance into the PAL range but it would still be nice to have it stated in the listing.

If I were a retailer, I think I would follow Eric's reasoning. It makes sense to me. It's pretty much the same standard we used in the industrial paint supply place I used to work at.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:43 am 
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Location: Stavely, Alberta
Doc Sharptail wrote:
blade57 wrote:
Try this for logic.

A guy goes into Wholesale Sports and buys a bag containing 50 pieces of .308 brass. The following day the same guy goes back into the same WS and buys box of 100 bullets in .308. Next.day he returns and buys 1lb of powder, goes home and makes 50 rounds of .308 ammo.

The guy is now in posession of firearms ammunition which is I believe a Federal offence presuming he is not in posession of the correct licensing.

Can Wholesale Sports be held accountable for this mans offences. I think not.

DaveD :D


Your argument holds no water- a valid P.A.L. is required for the purchase of both smokeless powder and primers.



Regards,

Doc Sharptail


You're wrong, At least in Alberta. I bought 4 pounds of Winchester 231 in a High River Gun store and 2000 Small Pistol Primers in Bass Pro north of Calgary. On neither occasion was I asked to produce my PAL.

DaveD :D

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"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." ~ Theodore Roosevelt


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:46 am 
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Location: Eastern Ontario
Doc Sharptail wrote:
blade57 wrote:
Try this for logic.

A guy goes into Wholesale Sports and buys a bag containing 50 pieces of .308 brass. The following day the same guy goes back into the same WS and buys box of 100 bullets in .308. Next.day he returns and buys 1lb of powder, goes home and makes 50 rounds of .308 ammo.

The guy is now in posession of firearms ammunition which is I believe a Federal offence presuming he is not in posession of the correct licensing.

Can Wholesale Sports be held accountable for this mans offences. I think not.

DaveD :D


Your argument holds no water- a valid P.A.L. is required for the purchase of both smokeless powder and primers.



Regards,

Doc Sharptail


I would have to agree with Dave on this one, Doc...at least in Ontario anyways.

Case in point: A few years ago one of my younger brothers and I went to LeBaron's in Ottawa - him to replenish his PB reloading supplies, and me some new arrows/broadheads for bowhunting and the "obligatory" new fishing lures it seems I just HAVE to get every time I'm in there... :roll:. Anyways, he purchased 10 lbs of gun powder, 5000 primers, steel and lead shot of various sizes for shotguns and also some bullets (100 of each in .270, .303, .308, 30.06, .300 mag). Although the cashier did a double-take at the mound of stuff he plunked down on the counter, NOT ONCE was he asked to show his PAL.

I go up next and as she is ringing the total up, I added two 500 round boxes of 22lr that I almost forgot about to the order and she immediately asked to see my PAL before she would even open the cabinet for them. It was no problem regarding showing her my PAL (which I knew I was going to have to do anyways), but thought it was kinda funny/weird that the customer ahead of me (my brother) could buy enough gun powder, primers, etc to blow the place off the face of the earth, but I had to produce my PAL to buy a few lowly 22lr shells... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:17 am 
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Location: Alberta Canada
Exactically, they are only components. Just like gun parts. PAL isnt required, BUT loaded ammunition is PAL required. Just like breeches/ actions and bolts. PAL required.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:19 am 
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Location: Stavely, Alberta
nowhere wrote:
It's pretty much the same standard we used in the industrial paint supply place I used to work at.


I suppose there are a couple of aspects to the OP's question. The Legal aspect and the Moral one.

If I was selling say Industrial Paint and knew it would have an adverse effect on the buyer, I would feel obliged to point out the potential dangers of the product. Whilst maybe it wouldn't be a Legal requirement to point out the dangers, I would feel a Moral obligation.

DaveD :D

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:42 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 11367
Location: P.G. B.C.
AirGunEric wrote:
Daryl and Dukemeister have it right, in my view.

Parts, excluding 'receivers' (and items that would be "prohibited"), are not regulated in any way.

However, if it is obvious someone does not have a PAL but wants to purchase parts to construct a "firearm" or modify something to become a "firearm" (i.e. "I do not have a PAL and want to make my detuned Daisy shoot 800fps, what should I buy from you") I think there is little that is defensible from a legal standpoint if you then offer advice and/or sell them the parts. "Intent" is often a part of a prosecution and if it's obvious that you aided someone not able to own a "firearm" of whatever sort construct such a "firearm"- I think you'd have a tough time avoiding a criminal record.

Likewise, many times people have come to me with that question above and I have been forced to either ignore them (i.e. not respond) or outright refuse to sell them parts. I remember one guy a couple years back who I determined was bent on constructing a "prohibited device" out of parts after some back-forth communications, so I flat-out told him we could not sell him what he wanted unless he produced a PAL for "prohibited" products (yes, such PALs do exist). Based on the reaction, you'd think I shot his children and raped his wife...don't know if he ever got what he wanted, all I know is he didn't get the parts from us.


Good points, Eric. As with most threads, expansion of the original question happens. Intent does come into court court proceedings - in some charges, intent must be proven, while in others it is part of the charge- "and did intend to commit an indictable offense".

I certainly see your point, Eric - well made and executed. The 12(6) PAL (prohibited-allowed PAL) is not a license one can obtain from anyone,anywhere - now. If you do not already have one, you cannot get one- THAT is the law. Also, if your 12(6) PAL expires without you renewing it on time (you are late applying), you lose the Prohib. PAL - period. If it expires it is gone and you must turn over all prohibited firearms to the police for destruction, no compensation - you are otherwise in possession of prohibited firearms without a license - up to 10 years behind bars, I think. That's 2 more than criminals usually get for killing someone.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:15 pm 
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I dare to say I agree with Dukemiester. If a person feels a moral responsibility and exercises that belief/right not to sell the parts to someone without a pal, he sleeps well, his conscience is clear and no wrong returns to him. On the other hand, if it is legal to sell the parts and he decides to or not, it's a decision that he makes based on how is conscience convicts him either way.

The fact that he asks tells me that the conscience is working and needs to be a peace with the decision he makes, hence the question.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:39 am 
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Posts: 2767
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
sholo wrote:
Doc Sharptail wrote:
blade57 wrote:
Try this for logic.

A guy goes into Wholesale Sports and buys a bag containing 50 pieces of .308 brass. The following day the same guy goes back into the same WS and buys box of 100 bullets in .308. Next.day he returns and buys 1lb of powder, goes home and makes 50 rounds of .308 ammo.

The guy is now in posession of firearms ammunition which is I believe a Federal offence presuming he is not in posession of the correct licensing.

Can Wholesale Sports be held accountable for this mans offences. I think not.

DaveD :D


Your argument holds no water- a valid P.A.L. is required for the purchase of both smokeless powder and primers.



Regards,

Doc Sharptail


I would have to agree with Dave on this one, Doc...at least in Ontario anyways.

Case in point: A few years ago one of my younger brothers and I went to LeBaron's in Ottawa - him to replenish his PB reloading supplies, and me some new arrows/broadheads for bowhunting and the "obligatory" new fishing lures it seems I just HAVE to get every time I'm in there... :roll:. Anyways, he purchased 10 lbs of gun powder, 5000 primers, steel and lead shot of various sizes for shotguns and also some bullets (100 of each in .270, .303, .308, 30.06, .300 mag). Although the cashier did a double-take at the mound of stuff he plunked down on the counter, NOT ONCE was he asked to show his PAL.

I go up next and as she is ringing the total up, I added two 500 round boxes of 22lr that I almost forgot about to the order and she immediately asked to see my PAL before she would even open the cabinet for them. It was no problem regarding showing her my PAL (which I knew I was going to have to do anyways), but thought it was kinda funny/weird that the customer ahead of me (my brother) could buy enough gun powder, primers, etc to blow the place off the face of the earth, but I had to produce my PAL to buy a few lowly 22lr shells... :lol:


I actually did quite a bit of digging on this, and what's available is as clear as mud. There's a piece on this subject on the legalese forum over on CGN, with no clear quotes on what the law actually is.

Every where I've seen powder and primers sold, a proof of P.A.L. is required. I was quite un-aware of it being vendor sales policy~ I had erroneously thought it was the law, based on what I've seen and heard, and so must stand ever so politely corrected. :mrgreen:

Regards,

Doc Sharptail

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 1:00 pm
Posts: 474
If you would sell such 2240 there's nothing says that you cant sell parts like the stores do.
If a store sells 24 inch barrels FOR Crossman 2240 they damn well know that this perticular 2240 is going to be a restricted gun but laws are made in such ways that it's legal.
So back to selling a 2240 that you're not supposed to own without a RPAL, if you were to sell parts of a 2240 say without a barrel and sell a 24 inch barrel to that same guy, it would be legal just make two distinct bills or papers saying that you sold parts AND a barrel.


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