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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 974
Location: Far
I wish Webley's were "10 a penny" over here. I would settle for a dime a dozen though.


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 Post subject: Mainsprings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
Supe,
Another nice example...
The Quaint old Relum Tornado underlever, with Tap loading, was quite sought after here in England for about a year after its release.
The big mod on this at the time, was to chuch out the excessive strength mainsprings (a pair like the Predon design) and fit a simple single spring as fitted to the BSa Meteor (with a coil removed)
Despite the lighter springing, power went up a good 1/2 ftlb and accuracy and smoothness improved no end.
This doesnt make sense on the face of it, with many guns the reverse being true!?

It seems that the stroke length to compression strength ratio is just too unbalanced and needed tweaking back.
(Smoothness may have come from single spring not rubbing, or binding on inner spring)
......but its not what anyone expected at the time, including the best experts!

Incidently, i have a real nice (non permanent mod for your Service if interested....and no, its not a piston mod! :)
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Reply for Suprmatic
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:11 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
Stephen wrote:
We may have got off on the wrong foot but i just hope you can accept a rival expert (i guess its hard for both of us)
Hoping for your understanding here then.
Steve

I've often stated that I am no "expert" - I find that I can usually learn something new on an ongoing basis. As for the "rival" part - no need for that either.
How about "experimenters with sometimes dissenting viewpoints"? LOL.


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 Post subject: Ten a penny
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:13 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
LBW,
Yeah, up until about 10 to 15 years back, Vintage Webleys were available in virtually any Secondhand dealers shop in any village.
You could pick one up for a few Pounds.

My first 3 were about £10.....a brand new Crosman Pistol was over £40 at the time.
I still see them occasionally, even now running about £60 to £100.
Old Juniors were practically given away because nobody wanted them.

Seniors are now getting very scarce, and should rise dramatically, but B to D series Premiers are still around.
Havent seen no MK1s for a long time, except in bad condition.
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Mainsprings
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
Stephen wrote:
The big mod on this at the time, was to chuch out the excessive strength mainsprings (a pair like the Predon design) and fit a simple single spring

Which model of Predom rifle used the dual mainsprings, and what configuration were they in? (one inside the other, or interwound coils?). I have had dozens of Predom rifles apart, and have never seen one yet with dual mainsprings.

Stephen wrote:
Incidently, i have a real nice (non permanent mod for your Service if interested....and no, its not a piston mod! :)
Steve

I'm all ears - please proceed.


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 Post subject: Reply for Supe
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:24 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
No problems Supe, ill just post what i have, whenever relevant....and you can take it or leave it, as i will you.

A few more thoughts on the LP53.
Despite Crazy Mikes claims of 495 fps due to increased springing, i never could get anymore out of it.
I tried allsorts of elaborate lengths to improve, drawing on all my experiences, and machining skills but to no avail.

With massive determination to exceed on this ultimate challenge, i tried individual thrusters under the mainsprings, then at the piston end, in the form of piston weights.
I tried nylon versions, for reduced friction on mainspring ends.
Ridiculously risky, i machined the chamber deeper by 2mm.
Used different head designs.......and ended up with nothing!

Despite my best efforts, Walther must have gotten it exactly right first time (luck or otherwize) but i do a nice line in PTFE washer head units.
I have managed to sell about 10 of these due to all the old leather heads having rotted away.
Surrey guns sold their last one about 5 years ago!
S.


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 Post subject: Relum
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:42 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
Supe,
I said Relum Tornado!
There was also the Relum Taurus.
I dont know if you got these in Canada during the 80s but the Tornado had dual springs, where the inner spring was wound in the opposite direction in a bid to prevent binding.
It didnt work too well.

Your mod.
In complete paradox to the old Tornado, the Webley Service is very slightly under sprung.
I used a machined washer 5mm thick below the mainspring to aid spin, and increase by about one coil length, using Phosphor bronze for traditional purposes.
The gun returns about 30 fps more, and no apparent extra stress on the system. (15 year old mod. with no probs.)

The Service was designed for English 5.6mm (real .22 instead of European 5.5mm pellets) and seems to have the edge with old Eley Wasp pellets.
It could be it just likes these semi domes but fact remains, accuracy is better than with any of the new fancy pellets which seem to cost so much today.
Crosman premier seem to be as close as one might get to these (for you over there)

Set up right, the Service can be exceedibly accurate, and i can hit a piece of roofing slate "end on" every time at 10 yds.
My old Service in .25 cal. killed maybe a 1000 rats across several years of farm building shooting.
I still pick up the spat of of a spent .25 ball lying around the neibouring farm.
Its a big old lump of lead if you compare it to a .177 and came out at about 11.3 ftlbs.
The Balls were in at about 18 grains and would often punch a hole clean through a rats skull at 8yds.
S.


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 Post subject: Re: Relum
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
Stephen wrote:
I said Relum Tornado!

I understand that you were referring to modding of the Relum Tornado, but it was the comment regarding the springs - "(a pair like the Predon design)" that caught my attention. Pehaps I misunderstood.

Your info regards the Webley Mk II Service mod has been noted and saved - thanks.

Stephen wrote:
The Service was designed for English 5.6mm (real .22 instead of European 5.5mm pellets) and seems to have the edge with old Eley Wasp pellets.

That coincides exactly with my own findings - and I have squirreled away a lifetime supply of Eley Wasp 5.6 mm pellets - lol. In fact, use of 5.5 mm pellets in my particular .22 cal Service results in harsher firing characteristics, and dieseling. Reverting back to 5.6 mm Wasps, settles it right back down.

At the fun shoot at a local member's place last weekend, I had my .22 Service sighted in for 20 yd zero with the tangent sights, and a 40 yard zero with the flip up peep. I managed to hit, more than once, a field target at around 45 yards, with IIRC, about a 1" or 1 1/8" KZ. A supremely cool, and accurate, old rifle.


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 Post subject: English Pellets
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
Supr,
The old Webley and early BSA standard pattern air rifles were all designed with English .22 (5.6mm) in mind, same as .177 which equates to 4.6mm instead of the European 4.5mm.

The use of European 5.5mm will therefore have slightly more clearance (0.1mm) and result in a less than perfect hermetic seal in the bore.
Dieseling could certainly be the result.
Diesling wants to occur in air rifles due to the generation of heat acting on the oils required in this type of system.
A faster moving piston/spring (due to leaky pellets) would merely add to the generation of heat in this detenation phase.

Services loved English ball rounds.
Spitzer produced 5.65mm and .255mm ball rounds and offered a nice snug fit into the bore.
Rifling really digs in and the Balls were suprisingly (abnormally) very accurate.
If you can ever get your hands on the .25 barrel your collection really would be complete, along with a good 1/2 ftlb increase in muzzle energy.
The long in-direct transfer port benefitted from larger bores in all Webley guns that used this system.
S.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
Supr,
Another interesting point which you may have noticed is the way in which the lower frame (below the cocking bolt area) took its blue.
They decided to use good old EN8 oil hardening steel for this area, it being tough enough without any heat treatment.
Stangely, EN8 tool steel, takes the Bluing treatment slightly differently to the EN24 of the Cylinder, and actually came out of the Bluing vat in a deep Purple blue.
Webley decided this was not a problem and many Services have beautiful purple hues in this area.
S.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
[img]www.vintageairguns.co.uk/photo-library[webleypistols2]/16.WebleySeniorcutaway.jpg[/img]


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