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This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
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Author:  DoctorFrankengun [ Tue May 05, 2009 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
Despite the fact that everyone thinks (read, IS SURE) that there is a law in Ontario that prohibits minors from purchasing and possessing under 500 air guns,,,,,,,,,, THERE IS NOT!!!

I was challenged to provide a link as proof to this "said" law. After doing an extensive search all I found was unsubstantiated comments like the one made buy the CBC show "MarketPlace" and I quote,,,,,

"A BB gun that resembles a restricted handgun can be purchased and owned by anyone in Canada according to federal law. Ontario is the only province that restricts the purchase of imitation guns to those over 18 years. Some municipalities have developed their own by-laws restricting the sale and/or use of bb guns."
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2009/the_ ... rship.html

As I could not find anywhere on the net the "said Law" in written form. I started making phone calls. My call to the "Ontario Chief Firearms Officer" was an eye opener :shock: There is no such law on the books. I was told that responsible retailers have a policy not to sell to minors but it is totally voluntary on their part.

I have posted in the "For Sale" section of my forum a request that sellers use good judgment and sell only to those over 18. Every time a kid gets into mischief with an airgun it makes the news and sheds a bad light on this community and our sport. Please do your part to prevent this from happening.
Author:  knight_2k1 [ Thu May 07, 2009 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
In fact, it is illegal in Ontario for a business to sell airguns to individuals under 18, according to s.4(1) of the Imitation Firearms Regulation Act.
An offence under this section can result in a fine of up to $15,000.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_00i37_e.htm

Yes, all airguns are "imitation firearms" for the purposes of this act, because it imports the definition of firearms from the Criminal Code.
This only applies to businesses, so private sales on forums such as ours should be alright.
I don't know whether there is similar legislation in other provinces.

However, one thing to keep in mind for private sales is the fact that minors may void contracts for non-essentials (basically anything other than food and clothing) and refuse to pay. Contract law holds that minors do not have the capacity to contract. Therefore, it is smart as a seller to avoid minors where possible.

Of course, follow the rules of this board which prohibit sales to minors.
Author:  DoctorFrankengun [ Thu May 07, 2009 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
knight_2k1 wrote:
In fact, it is illegal in Ontario for a business to sell airguns to individuals under 18, according to s.4(1) of the Imitation Firearms Regulation Act.
An offence under this section can result in a fine of up to $15,000.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_00i37_e.htm

Yes, all airguns are "imitation firearms" for the purposes of this act, because it imports the definition of firearms from the Criminal Code.
This only applies to businesses, so private sales on forums such as ours should be alright.
I don't know whether there is similar legislation in other provinces.

However, one thing to keep in mind for private sales is the fact that minors may void contracts for non-essentials (basically anything other than food and clothing) and refuse to pay. Contract law holds that minors do not have the capacity to contract. Therefore, it is smart as a seller to avoid minors where possible.

Of course, follow the rules of this board which prohibit sales to minors.


Your research is better than mine and apparently the "Ontario Chief Firearms Officer" doesn't know his job very well :roll:

Thanks for posting this info.
Author:  scruffie [ Thu May 07, 2009 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
knight_2k1 wrote:

Yes, all airguns are "imitation firearms" for the purposes of this act, because it imports the definition of firearms from the Criminal Code.


Your whole argument hinges on an airgun being an imitation
Not sure that I agree with your supposition that "ALL" airguns are Imitation Firearms? Airsoft are imitation as are replicas. Any airrifle over 500fps is pal rated which makes it mandatory to be registered as a firearm. If you have a airgun pistol, say a modded 2240 shooting a lead pellet over 500fps it is considered a restricted firearm and a real No No. Just how are these examples considered imitation??? Remember that we are talking Pellet Guns here and not Airsoft which Can And are considered imitation (Replicas) firearms as they are considered by law as not being able to hurt you. Are you sure that this is not what your thinking of. IE. Replica firearms are illegal in Canada.

Under Canadian law "firearm" means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury (i.e., permanent damage to an eye) or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm. Using just this definition virtually every airgun firing a lead pellet is a firearm.
However, since 1978 there has been a partial exception for relatively low powered airguns. According to the Criminal Code a pellet gun is a firearm for the purposes of the Firearms Act only if it is designed or adapted to discharge:

- a pellet at a muzzle velocity of more than 152.4 metres per second (about 500 feet per second); or
- a pellet which itself is designed or adapted to attain a velocity of more than 152.4 metres per second.

That meant that typical low powered airguns did not require registration nor the owner to be licenced.
The law doesn't usually rate pellet guns as firearms

Katie Mercer, The Province
Published: Thursday, October 16, 2008
More than 50 Canadian youths under age 18 require hospital care annually for injuries caused by pellet and other air-guns, according to the Canada Safety Council.

How the youths get their hands on the guns is another issue.

Air-guns aren't normally considered firearms under the Criminal Code or under the Firearms Act if they shoot a projectile less than 152.4 metres per second. That means you don't need a licence, authorization or registration certificates to own or possess one.


However, if an air-gun is used in a criminal offence, then it's considered a firearm and the regular penalties apply.

Screening of who can and who can't own a pellet-gun is generally up to the businesses that sell them.

At Canadian Tire, just blocks from Tuesday's pellet-gun shooting in Whalley, guns were in a locked glass case yesterday. A sticker on the glass said: "It is our policy to sell air-guns, pellets and BBs and other accessories only to persons 18 years of age or older."

Frankey Chen of Lever Arms Service in Kitsilano said his company's policy is to only sell air-guns to persons 19 years of age or older, and then only if they provide valid photo identification.

Here are all definitions.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-f ... ir-eng.htm

As Dr. Frankengun stated
There is no Law!!!
Author:  knight_2k1 [ Fri May 08, 2009 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
Thank you for your contribution sir, but I assume that you didn't actually read the Act, despite the fact that I provided a link and explained that this Act imports the definitions from the Criminal code. So as to prevent you from misleading others, I'll walk you through it.

Imitation Firearms Regulation Act s. 1:
Quote:
“firearm” means a firearm as defined in section 2 of the Criminal Code

“imitation firearm” includes any object other than a starter pistol to which section 2 applies or a deactivated firearm to which section 3 applies, if the object,

(a) could reasonably be mistaken for a firearm but is not a firearm or a replica firearm as defined in section 84 of the Criminal Code (Canada), or

(b) is a firearm but is not designed or adapted to discharge,

(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second, or

(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second;


Criminal Code of Canada s.2:
Quote:
"firearm" means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm;


Therefore, an airgun is an 'imitation firearm' where it is caught by the Criminal Code definition and it is under 500fps (notice that this Act does not include the cutoff for joules, which does not mirror the s. 84(3)(d)(i) of the Criminal Code). Therefore, businesses cannot sell sub-500 fps airguns to those under 18 in Ontario. However, they can sell over 500fps airguns to them. Notice that there is an interesting gap in the law, where over 500fps airguns can be sold to minors under the Ontario Act, but an individuals requires a PAL for those over 500fps and over 5.7 Joules. It would be possible for minors to buy, without a PAL, those models over the velocity limit but under the energy limit (although that may be very few guns).

While your use of multiple exclamation points is somewhat convincing, I think reading the actual sections makes a clearer argument. As for your link to the RCMP site, while this is a great place to start reading, are you going to rely on them to interpret all law for you? I've had customs agents tell me things that are flat out wrong about the law a number of times, but luckily I had educated myself before speaking with them.

None of this is legal advice, merely a reading of the law.
Author:  scruffie [ Fri May 08, 2009 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
knight_2k1 wrote:
Thank you for your contribution sir, but I assume that you didn't actually read the Act.
As for your link to the RCMP site, while this is a great place to start reading, are you going to rely on them to interpret all law for you? I've had customs agents tell me things that are flat out wrong about the law a number of times, but luckily I had educated myself before speaking with them.

None of this is legal advice, merely a reading of the law.



Oh I read the act all right. When it comes to Laws it IS all about interpretation. Hence, someone else is able to read and interpret something different than you do. I guess this must be the case with the Chief Firearms officer of Ontario, whom is charged with enforcing the laws of Ontario. Because when asked by Dr. Frankengun he stated that there was no law governing the age. So yes. I would have a tendency to believe what the Chief Firearms officer told me and in conjunction with what is clearly stated on the RCMP website over some legal terms and framework open to interpretation, posted on Ontario's E-site.
Thankfully I live here in BC where we our Provincial Government, doesn't complicated the federal firearms act ny supplementing it with laws of their own making. When I get pulled over in a game check by a CO (provincial Conservation officer) He only wants to see my hunting tags and that my firearms are unloaded. When I have asked why not needing to see my registration certificates or PAL the response has been. Thats Federal. We have nothing to do with that. The Cops though (RCMP) want to see all the firearm paperwork. But could care less if you have a tag or hunting licence. Thats provincial and unless specifically tasked consider it not their job.
Again Interpretations I guess.
Author:  DoctorFrankengun [ Fri May 08, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
A response to one of my inquiries arrived today ,,,, from CFO.Ontario@ontario.ca

My inquiry,,,,,

"Hello,

It is my understanding that to purchase and possess an under 500 fps air gun (BB or Pellet) or air soft in Ontario an individual must be 18 years of age or older. This seems to be common knowledge and I am one of those who supports this standard, however, it is difficult to educate others of this fact due to there being no written record of this law that I can find.

I have done a extensive internet search and cannot find any Ontario government site that spells out the regulations. Can you provide me with this info in written form?

Thank you.

George Ewen
Cochrane ON"

The response,,,,,

File Reference 677 00



"Mr. Ewen:



The Imitation Firearms Regulation Act, 2000, S.O. 2000, Chapter 37 is the reference source you are seeking. It is a short statute of about 4 pages in length. You can obtain it from the Internet by conducting a search of the Google search engine. I suggest that you query Imitation Firearms Regulation Act.



Chantal L. Trahan
Policy and Communications Officer
Chief Firearms Office - Ontario
Tel: 705-329-5524 or 1-800-731-4000, ext. 7544
Fax: 705-329-5623
E-mail: chantal.trahan@ontario.ca"
Author:  scruffie [ Fri May 08, 2009 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
DoctorFrankengun wrote:



The Imitation Firearms Regulation Act, 2000, S.O. 2000, Chapter 37 is the reference source you are seeking. It is a short statute of about 4 pages in length. You can obtain it from the Internet by conducting a search of the Google search engine. I suggest that you query Imitation Firearms Regulation Act.



Interesting that he just points you to a 4 page statute an leaves you to figure it out. :? No nice concise paragraph that spells it out so that a commoner can understand just what the F it is trying to say.
That law is an Ontario statute and not federal. There for only pertaining to Ontario and not the rest of Canada. Also you need to be a legal beagle to interpret or understand it. Bad enough that the Ontario Head Honcho just points to four pages and says its in there somewhere. :lol: So it sounds like there is still no Federal firearms Law to be found prohibiting the selling so the Province of Ontario just made their Own up??? :? As that Imitation 2000 regulation gobblygook only pertains to the Province of Ontario and not the rest of the Provinces in Canada.
_________________
Author:  ellodrith [ Fri May 08, 2009 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
scruffie wrote:
Interesting that he just points you to a 4 page statute an leaves you to figure it out. :? No nice concise paragraph that spells it out so that a commoner can understand just what the F it is trying to say.


I agree, would have taken him 15 more characters or so to point you to the right place. Too many say "just google it" it these days instead of helpin out.

cheers
Jeff
Author:  knight_2k1 [ Fri May 08, 2009 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
scruffie wrote:
someone else is able to read and interpret something different than you do. I guess this must be the case with the Chief Firearms officer of Ontario, whom is charged with enforcing the laws of Ontario. Because when asked by Dr. Frankengun he stated that there was no law governing the age. So yes. I would have a tendency to believe what the Chief Firearms officer told me and in conjunction with what is clearly stated on the RCMP website over some legal terms and framework open to interpretation, posted on Ontario's E-site.


Interpretation matters sometimes, but this Act is clear cut.

Shame the CFO didn't give the right answer initially and a poor one now. It goes to show that individual research is important too.
Author:  topher1266 [ Sat May 09, 2009 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
It may be that he really isn't sure and won't commit to a solid response,or he doesn't know either.Sometimes the exact word of the law is misinturpited by those that should know.So we are left to figure it out,unless there is a lawyer or police officer in the group that can clarify it for all of us.There has got to be someone who knows.Topher
Author:  knight_2k1 [ Sat May 09, 2009 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
I posted the relevant sections for you! How can this be misinterpretted?

Quote:
“imitation firearm” includes any object ... to which section 2 applies ... if the object
(b) is a firearm but is not designed or adapted to discharge,
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second;


The section 2 referred to above in the CCC reads:
Quote:
"firearm" means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm;


The exemptions from the firearms act in s.84 of the CCC are irrelevant to this reading.

If it makes any difference, I am writing my bar exams now and will be licensed as a lawyer in about a year. To be clear, I am not a lawyer yet, but I have some experience reading the law. However, anyone can read the above and understand what it says.
Author:  lauchlin [ Sat May 09, 2009 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
knight_2k1 wrote:
I posted the relevant sections for you! How can this be misinterpretted?

Quote:
“imitation firearm” includes any object ... to which section 2 applies ... if the object
(b) is a firearm but is not designed or adapted to discharge,
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second;


The section 2 referred to above in the CCC reads:
Quote:
"firearm" means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm;


The exemptions from the firearms act in s.84 of the CCC are irrelevant to this reading.

If it makes any difference, I am writing my bar exams now and will be licensed as a lawyer in about a year. To be clear, I am not a lawyer yet, but I have some experience reading the law. However, anyone can read the above and understand what it says.

A lawyer tell me your not going to bill us for this post
Author:  knight_2k1 [ Sat May 09, 2009 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This may come as a shock to most of you,,,,,,,,,,
This is all pro bono publico.

Half my enjoyment of this hobby has been reading the laws relating to firearms. They don't have too many classes in airgun law at law school, so I'm just learning it all as I go along.

It amazes me how much wrong information is passed out on sites like CGN, so I like to try to post the sections of the law directly where I can, rather than relying on third hand reports of what friends have done or information provided by officials who don't know what they're talking about.

I'm still researching on the silencer/muzzle brake issue.
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