Canadian Airgun Forum

As Edmonton<500 has pointed out- great you saved some money on that rifle that Canadian Tire still made $100.00 even at the price-match price and small dealers make $30.00 on normally. Canadian Tire is a sort of "necessary evil" as Doc points out in respect to detuned products- 90% of airgun consumers in Canada are either retail impulse buyers or people who haven't discovered there is more out there than what is on the CT (or other chain-stores) shelf (and the majority of these buyers never will). This leaves about 10% of the airgun market for all the "small guys" (not a great starting point) and some foreign competitors buying products from manufacturers with a different (lower US-based) pricelist and shipping select items to Canada. Small dealers can't make a living selling seal kits and small accessories that the big boxes/foreign competitors won't carry or ship.

A good example of a common issue: Customer comes along and buys $50.00 worth of parts/accessories for the rifle they got at Canadian Tire at that $300.00+ price that they could have bought online for $200.00. Customer wants a new rifle- they go to CT with the online vendor's price for the "price match" and then go back to the online vendor for another $50.00 worth of accessories they couldn't find at CT- but with 100 questions before and after buying said rifle because CT is incapable of answering their questions. How much work is a small guy going to put into a $50.00 sale? Some, but when the same customer does the same thing again, the small seller loses alot motivation to be "helpful" as the "payoff" for what could be 2 hours of effort for a $20.00 total profit on the total of the two parts/accessories sales is less than working for minimum wage. The more this occurs, the more de-motivated the smaller dealer likely becomes.

This is not to suggest that this is a guaranteed outcome, but the world has changed since the demise of the federal Gun Registry- everyone around town seems to think their is "money" in gun-related sales (there has never been much "money" in gun sales of any sort- it really is a volume-based business, and thus why most gun dealers/retail stores sell clothing and such these days- it's about the only thing left that has a decent margin)- the increased competition from all sorts of "chain" type stores recently in the airgun world; TSC, Princess Auto, CT, WalMart, and every 'surplus' dealer out there, the last couple years is hurting every one of the online Canadian airgun retailers.

People often ask me things like "why don't you bring in accessory or custom part X from this seller in the US/Europe/wherever" and the easy answer is "because we only address a maximum of about 10% of the market- the rest all go to chain-type or foreign online stores, and of this 10% maybe 0.5% might buy that item you would like, but it's a risk, and without alot of extra cash floating around due to lower sales numbers- no one is willing to take that risk and possibly be stuck with hundreds or thousands of dollars of product that might keep a shelf weighed down for 5 years. You can see this with at least one vendor online who is sitting on rifles that haven't been sold, or sold in the configuration they have on their shelf for a number of years, or vendors that start offering "flat rate shipping" in order to try and get sales up a bit (with a further impact on their already low profit- a $15.00 flat rate on a rifle from BC to Newfoundland is going to give someone heart palpitations when it comes up, especially if sales volumes haven't gone up enough to cover such subsidies).

-Just to mention it, I don't think any of the existing Canadian online airgun vendors make a living off their business at this point- one I believe has a medical condition and is semi-retired, another is fully retired and pays their bills from their "previous life" income, one works at another gun business, one is a programmer, another is supported by their family's other business activities, one is a public servant, another I believe is some sort of tour operator... bottom line is these businesses are more "hobby businesses" than real screaming profitable business ventures and if/when the dollars drop so low the excess amount of effort for a relatively low "payoff" that absorbs their limited available time becomes silly, people will drop out. Heck, I might have dropped out before now if I didn't have an employee who needs to make a living and I enjoy the actual products (airguns). However, for me too, if the day ever comes when I'm dealing with people wanting free/nearly free advice or the self-defined "experts" (technical and/or legal) trying to tell me what's what and money isn't being made- I may conclude that the dozens of FT shoots I miss due to working at the business is a bad idea.

Just as a note- this is not meant as some sort of malicious message, only explaining that the days of the dedicated online airgun retailers in Canada may be coming to an end in the next few years if something in the larger market doesn't change, the only ones that might remain would be those too hard-headed to throw it in or those that only plan to operate the business with no great expectation of making money (the continuation of the 'hobby' business idea but with an even lower expectation of making any real 'profit' from it).

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Please note: I do not conduct business through Private Messages (PM's) in online forums. Please do not send a 'PM" with a business-related question.

Bottom line is people will always try to save money if they can thats just human nature.

I personally think if you would change some of your policies there would be more business knocking on your door just saying. But only you would know if you'd like more business or not

could be as simple as some small parts that could lead to a much bigger sale from a repeat and happy customer.
and also from word of mouth that this is a good business to deal with.

I think that if a person is turned away because of a quote unquote "policy" then they might not even bother to return and also the fact that they may tell there friends who tell there friends that they would rather not do business with so and so.

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"A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle"

If Le Barons can sell it for $185.94 and make money, you can bet that CT can match it at $185.94 and make money, so all you're doing is letting them rip you off less.

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Crosman Phantom .22 w/CenterPoint AR22 4x32
Crosman 760 Pumpmaster w/original Crosman 4x20

Let's not BS around here Ace- you don't like having a $30.00 minimum order and want to order $10.00 parts and have them shipped in a $2.00 envelope. Problem there is, as has been explained before- we lose money processing such orders and if it doesn't show up at your door and can't be tracked- then we have a situation that will take more time/money to sort out- i.e. bigger losses. "All business" is not "good business".

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Please note: I do not conduct business through Private Messages (PM's) in online forums. Please do not send a 'PM" with a business-related question.

People are far too concerned with saving money IMO

Yes, obviously, no one wants to spend more money than they need to, but people should really stop and think about who and what they are supporting.

So you save a few bucks at CT, that's great, aside from the fact that CT doesn't give 2 sh!ts about the airgun community, they are in it for money, if that goes away, they drop all airguns from their stores immediately. Obviously every business is there to make money, but I want to support businesses that have mutual interests, or at the very least can offer some sort of information/assistance should I need it.

I seriously doubt Eric is loosing many customers due to a $30 order requirement, and if you don't have $30 to spend, your probably not making him much money to begin with so...IDK...Its not like he is sitting beside the computer waiting for $10 orders to come thru so he can race to send them out, its a business, not Ebay

The only good that comes from this is wider availability to those who may have never seen the available selection of airguns otherwise, but most people are not like "us", they buy one airgun and shoot it once a month...

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"It's just a springer..."

Support specialty businesses that provide accurate advice, a wide range of products, specialty accessories/parts and most of all people who actually care about our airgunning community. No big chain store can offer those services.

Fair enough Eric and i totally understand your point and believe me I'm not trying to ruffle up any feathers or anything and I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business either just trying to put a point across, i know numerous people who will not deal with you because of this matter and even though it may seem like a silly and small thing but its still a fact.

And my point was that sometimes the little things can lead to a bigger sale in the end, a happy customer is a returned customer.

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"A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle"

can only speak from a customer's point of view here...

if i had my choice about it, i would purchase everything from my local gun shop, problem is, he doesn't carry what i'm looking for, guns or ammo, what he does carry is still mostly cheapo's, just different from CT

when somebody is new to airgunning, the first tendency is to buy from CT, i did that at least 3 time so far, if i only wanted to buy a single cheapo gun, ok CT would be fine, but once you get a little more knowledge of what's what, you start looking for that Diana, Hatsan, or even AA, and that is not carried by CT, so the next likely source would be online dealers.

despite those big volume stores, i think there will always be a need for them, and i would say even more now since there seems to be a fast growing interest in air guns, just look on this site, new arrivals almost daily, and if like me, they start wanting the good stuff, guess where they will end up buying ?

my only beef with all of this, are those ridiculous shipping costs, not the dealer's fault i know, but it pinches to a point where you start looking for the cheaper alternatives

just saying

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Can empty space really exist ?

I am sure you are right, but 100 customers that we lose $2 each on is $200.00 being thrown away- so how would a business recover that? By jacking up prices of course. The online store underlines this to people placing an order under $30.00 in products by adding a $10.00 surcharge to encourage them to go back and look up why (or ask via email) why there is a $10.00 surcharge- the answer being simple- meet the minimum, no surcharge.

But seriously, how hard is it for anyone to come up with $30.00 in anything? A few tins of pellets are $30-ish dollars by themselves, a $15.00 seal kit and two tins of pellets- it's met. The issue seems to be the largest with people who want a single service part for $5-10 and NOTHING else- so they complain about the $30.00 minimum when in all reality, it's hardly a "barrier"- buy a $15.00 seal kit and how could they not need a couple tins of pellets to use with the gun? It's not like we don't have 400+ airgun items for sale. If the issue is that the person is dead-poor financially and $30.00 plus shipping is a severe burden- unless they are using their airgun to hunt for their dinner- perhaps having a hobby such as airgunning (i.e. something that costs money to do) is not the best use of their resources. These are also not likely to be customers who will come back and buy anything later. Think about it- 3 packages of cigarettes are $30.00, a 26-er of liquor is almost $40 and I think we can be pretty sure that these same people are probably buying these "luxury" items without a second thought but will nonetheless be epically offended when vendors have a minimum order requirement.

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Please note: I do not conduct business through Private Messages (PM's) in online forums. Please do not send a 'PM" with a business-related question.

those are very valid point's

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"A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle"

I've got a lot of thoughts I'd like to express on this issue. and I can live with the fact that nobody cares. Since this thread has already been hijacked, this might be my opportunity to express some of them in a low-tension thread (I hope it can remain that way.

My first dealing with S&A was less than a year ago, and I'm accepting my ignorance of the online air gun world at the time (after being an avid air gunner with no internet for many years) as a contributing factor to my dissatisfaction. Details are irrelevant for this discussion.

What is important to say is that I understand Eric's philosophy completely, Which is why I wrote the earlier post that I did. I also think Doc Gadget made an excellent point about the chains keeping the detuned guns alive in the Canadian market. I'm also with Ace on his comment on S&As policies, but perhaps from a different slant.

I'm currently involved in this thread in my search for magazines for an existing gun (which I bought used, here, not from another online retailer: http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic58516.html. You see, I have never seen S&As policy regarding a $30 minimum purchase without "penalty surcharges." Have I read reference about it here? Yes. However, I have checked many purchase costs by going to near completion of the transaction where there are no references to a surcharge -- just high shipping rates. Please, don't send me url references; it doesn't matter. I am a potential customer, I've logged onto S&A innumerable times, and I'd like to think I'm at least one level above the guys who buys an air gun at CT (never have) and then looks to online stores to offer me everything I want at equally "cheap" prices for my CT purchase. I've been educated, but not thoroughly in this case, apparently.

With this new insight, I logged back into S&A and changed my order (referenced in the other post) to 2 x $14.95 and presto, my shipping costs changed to $13--It didn't the first couple of times I tried it, but that could easily have been user error. That is a fair shipping cost, and under normal circumstances< i would have seen how far I could stretch that shipping cost by adding a tin of pellets, or whatever. I guess the point here is, I didn't know I was being charged $15+ for an under $30 purchase. I have run into this scenario before - it's not Eric's invention. but at that/those site(s), I was told that and responded as I saw fit (in most cases added to exceed the minimum).

After learning that, and much more after being active in the online air gun industry, I can only site S&A for a lack of communication. While I don't think it's appropriate (then and now) to whine on CAF about the sorrows of being a small business owner to it's primary audience because that sounds like a pretty self-serving message. But the fact of the matter is, in Canada at least, the air gun industry has changed dramatically in the last several years. S&A has relied for many years on connections made many years ago in the small aigunning community by showing up at events, treating the small(er) number of customers as personal friends, and offering the best deals possible.

Today, air gunning is a multi-billion dollar industry, significantly driven by the "love generation" wanting to relive their youth, and expanded dramatically by today's youth, who think the industry technology of their generation is cool, and retro, and fun. The market has expanded, the sources have multiplied (thus driving the technology to meet the new demand), and CAF has (as well as other sites, such as S&A's "canadian air guns.com site," of which many CAF members, especially original CAF members also actively participate in). In an attempt to avoid all political issues, suffice it to say that members of that site know the rules. Whereas, the more general public that lands on CAF first, do not understand that S&A has a much more involved history than most sites, and doesn't, or isn't capable of, or isn't interested in, because of industry shifts, operating the same way as other plain 'ol "sell what's popular and fcuk the follow-up service business" online retailers. The dozens of newbies who join this forum weekly do not know Eric, nor S&A, any more than they know my middle name.

So, what the hell am I saying. What I'm saying is (a) not just from a "dumb" consumer's point of view (check my profile), and (b) dealing with issues that are easy to resolve.

Solution Number One:
Be what you want to be as a retailer, be proud of it, but be direct in explaining to consumers what you specialize in. Say openly, as a mark of distinguishing yourself from others, that you specialise in (my words, for example only) "offering a good selection of of popular, high-quality air gun products at very competitive prices, and backing those products well as the market allows with replacement and upgrade parts." Having said that, you can also say, with equal clarity and pride, that because you handle thousands of small parts to service your customers, and because those product are low in cost (and even lower in revenue to the store - but high in value to our customers) you have a $30 minimum order policy. Orders under $30 will be charged a surcharge of $15, simply because handling and shipping of a $5 part is just as costly as shipping an air rifle costing $200, $300, plus. "So, why not pick up some extra pellets, BBs or C02 carts with your order, and avoid the surcharge. That would make both of us happy!"

Solution Number Two:
Remember the changing marketplace. With no likely personal contact during transactions, online retailers have a particularly tough challenge in "building relationships" with customers, which is considered today to be one of the primary stepping stones to marketing success. On the other hand, they have all the great relationship-building tools at their disposal, simply because they live on the Internet, where (unfortunately, in my opinion) a lot of relationship-building occurs. Be aware that the market (even in a selective-focus medium like an air gunners forum) still remains broad in demographics such as age, education, and experience in the subject matter (not to mention perhaps a half dozen more demographics that could be vital in this marketplace). You can not longer walk into an open forum on the Internet and assume your are talking to your buddies who understand you and "get" what you mean.

So, you were wondering why I selected the two quotes I placed at the opening of this post. These are relatively harmless statements taken in the big picture of forum conversation, They say a lot about the poster to someone who doesn't have any other input through which to make a judgement (which he or she will likely do - make a judgement, that is). Keep in mind that the next 100 people who join CAF are, indeed, potentially good clients, and you're closer to them than you'll ever be by running an ad somewhere and hoping for 100 people to respond to it. Take advantage of the power you have as a respected member of social media outlet. Ensure that everything you say reflects the image you want prospects to think of when your name comes up.

There is my marketing lesson for the day. Those of you in small business operations who found any of this useful, please make a donation to Movember getfitover40 team. Otherwise, I will send you an invoice at the end of the month.

Murray

So were all done now

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VE7SHM//VE7ZJ

Moderator

I was surprised at the price of this air rifle at Scope and Ammo.com, it's competitive. If I get impatient I may simply order mine from Eric.

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