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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:13 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
rsterne wrote:
All I needed to do was to glue the plastic part of the forestock to the aluminum mount and it would have been fine.... as then the forestock would be one piece....

Now this is where the "spirit and intent" of the rule comes into play, and where a judgement call must be made based upon the individual gun. In addition to using removeable fasteners, your original design was also made of dissimilar materials , and as such, is hard to accept as being "one piece". Your design clearly had an aluminum "riser" with a plastic "hamster". No different than a wood stock with glued in aluminum risers and a wood hamster, now constituting a separate knee riser. I can now hear someone ask, "well what if the risers were made of wood instead of aluminum?" Once again, the "spirit and intent" of the rule comes into play, and clearly, it can become a nit-picking game of semantics, with no real purpose other than to create controversy in an attempt to circumvent the rules.

Using the AA EV2 as an example - do you think that it would be "fair" if someone (heaven forbid) were to remove the fasteners from the knee riser assembly, and then glue the aluminum mounts for the knee riser to the gun at an optimum position? Based upon my comments with regard to your photoshop pic, you may say, "yes, that is legal because it is glued together". But really, is it not simply an attempt to blatantly contravene the rule through semantics? This is where the "spirit and intent" of the rule comes into play, and such a gun would correctly be found in contravention of the rule. Same would apply if wooden dowels were put in place of the aluminum rods.

rsterne wrote:
I don't think I have defamed CAFTA at all.... and if I have, I sincerely apologize........

Well, Bob, your comments were far from complimentary.....
Quote:
I thought the whole point of CAFTA was to have a unified set of rules for Canada?.... I am continually told that the rules are fine and don't need any changes.... but I'll be darned if I can figure them out....

I hate rules that are open to interpretation (look at the mess that causes).... and I hate even MORE when people start quoting "the spirit of the rules" because that is always indicitive that the rules are poorly written and people then feel they have to defend them in that way because the written rule is imprecise....

I think that rather than trying to silence me.... you should be working towards a level playing field.... That is ALL I am trying to acheive.... For the life of me, I can't figure out why all the resistance to better rules....

I had hoped all the controversy over this issue previously would have resulted in more than it simply being ignored.... We were promised this issue would be addressed over the winter....

If you can't get a ruling from CAFTA.... then how is there any guarantee of consistency in Canada?....

I have NEVER before run into a governing body that fails to act and prefers to ignore the problem.


rsterne wrote:
I am still of the opinion that the rules should be changed so that none of these designs are allowed in HFT.... The fact that the aftermarket stock I posted in the beginning of this thread.... or the one that I drew.... are legal for HFT seems silly and easily preventable....

The HFT rules were set out to allow as broad a range of guns to be used as possible, to encourage participation, and thus far, it has worked out just great. As has been explained to you by Mac, the rules are continually being reviewed based upon feedback from regular match participants. If an issue raised has merit, it will be discussed, and addressed if necessary, based on the vast, combined experience of the CAFTA board members. Rules cannot be changed on the basis of a non-participant who simply refuses to accept that it is his misunderstanding (misinterpretation) of the rules that is the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:49 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 am
Posts: 2099
Location: Southern Ontario
rsterne wrote:
Please explain what in my posts you find offensive, rude, or otherwise indicitive that I have lost my temper.... I have nothing to be ashamed of...

The fact that you rehashed this subject on a public forum was rude. Your statements that you've been doing this for the benefit of CAFTA and not yourself are offensive. Your intentionally childish drawing of that stock, then repeated demands for a ruling on it's legality lead me to believe you lost your temper.
Anyways, just nit-picking now. Suprmatic has explained things better than I could have. If you don't get it after his posts, you're just not going to get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:32 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:19 pm
Posts: 8946
Location: Coalmont BC
OK so assuming I accept everything you have said.... Why would the stock that I drew (top of 2nd page) not be in contravention of the "spirit and intent" of the rule?.... To take that one step further, why is the aftermarket stock that I posted to start this thread not in contravention of that same "spirit and intent"?.... THEY BOTH HAVE BUILT IN KNEE RISERS....

Once again, gentleman.... all I ask for is FAIRNESS in the rule.... If what is required is a rule change to achieve that.... then IMO that is what is necessary.... The last thing CAFTA needs is for one Match Director to ban a gun from his interpretation of "spirit and intent" and have another allow the same gun.... Nowhere in the rules does it make mention of the materials allowed for any part of a gun.... or place a limit on how many different kinds may be used in the stock.... I submit that you are now the one grasping at straws....

I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness.... It is apparent that CAFTA and the "core group" of shooters has dug in its heels in a united front that there is nothing wrong with the existing rules.... This is despite promises last January that the weakness in the rules would be addressed.... I know one thing.... I would never travel back east to an event knowing the attitude of the shooters there....

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:55 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Puerto Rico
Greetings to all the great Canucks from me in the isle of Puerto Rico. That particular stock was purchased by me and is resting in my TX200 MKIII with a Hawke 30mm SideWinder 4-16X50 scope which I will use to participate in my first FT match to be held on the 15th of August.Wow,had no idea it was the center point of a controversy.
ImageImage

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
My apologies for stealing your photo.... I wanted a ruling on this and similar designs in the Hunter Division of FT.... It appears you are good to go, even in the Hunter Division....

Good Luck at the meet.... :wink:

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2104
Location: Greater Napanee, ON, Canada
Good grief Bob, he's from Puerto Rico. You going to start harassing them now? I am sure you could be as positive an influence for them as you have been for the solidarity of Ft shooters here in Canada.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
Pumpmaster wrote:
Suprmatic has explained things better than I could have. If you don't get it after his posts, you're just not going to get it.

Thanks PM.

Sadly, it appears to me that Bob is determined not to get it, for reasons known only to himself. Can't possibly help him to understand something when his mind is already made up, and he refuses to accept any explanation other than his own "interpretation".


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Posts: 1726
Location: canada
rsterne wrote:
I know one thing.... I would never travel back east to an event knowing the attitude of the shooters there...

Wow! :roll: I hope I'm welcome to a B.C. F/T event in the future?! Because I fully expect to meet y'all at some point! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:42 am
Posts: 4082
Location: Somewhere In Time
rsterne wrote:
For all those following this thread.... please understand that my only purpose is to get CAFTA to recognize that simple fact.... and to bring it to the attention of the forum members.... How they resolve it.... or if they choose to ignore it.... is totally up to them....

rsterne wrote:
all I ask for is FAIRNESS in the rule.... If what is required is a rule change to achieve that.... then IMO that is what is necessary

I don't honestly see how you think your opinion on something you have never attended is grounds for rule changes. You say all you want is fairness, yet your design was built with a large custom knee-riser. Why not just enter Open PCP and put every custom toy you can think of on the thing? instead of trying to slide in whatever you can into HFT....You have made this into something it shouldn't be, and honestly things like....
rsterne wrote:
My question is because this is a replacement stock that has a knee riser built in.... I don't wish to re-open old wounds.... but it looks to me like if you purchase a ready made aftermarket stock with a built in riser that is OK.... but don't make your own.... :roll:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.... :twisted: so you do wish to "re-open old wounds"....

rsterne wrote:
I know one thing.... I would never travel back east to an event knowing the attitude of the shooters there....

...make it seem like that is exactly what you want versus actually talking to someone like a rational person. It really just seems you are attacking something you have no experience with, and to that point; people you have no experience with. Also are you saying you now dislike eastern shooters because CAFTA wont change their rules to suit you?...... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:14 pm
Posts: 1343
Location: quebec
Image

it look litle like the rsterne stock ,,,,,,

military sniper competition use bipod,,

if it was possible to participate for me ,,il ask the same thing ,,
a new class like the reality of the day ,,for hunting class,,

target man

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:24 pm
Posts: 781
Location: Lower Newtown PEI
target man wrote:
Image

it look litle like the rsterne stock ,,,,,,

military sniper competition use bipod,,

if it was possible to participate for me ,,il ask the same thing ,,
a new class like the reality of the day ,,for hunting class,,

target man


Point is...that is an approved Olympic gun.....you would be surprised at how many other events it just might get disqualified and all rancor and acrimony aside... I think that was the point of this thread.

Saint Thomas Aquinas in his treatise on rules law and order said that a rule was "an ordinance of reason". He also said that any rule which did not stand to reason would "fail to bind the conscience" which I perceive is also what this thread is about.

I coached competitive karateka.

I refereed at national and international events.

When you are the steward of the rules...part of what is incumbent upon you is that you must be ready to respond to challenges as to the reason-ability of the rules with an explanation as to what was the reason the rule was made.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
MAUSER wrote:
... I think that was the point of this thread.

.....which I perceive is also what this thread is about.

When you are the steward of the rules...part of what is incumbent upon you is that you must be ready to respond to challenges as to the reason-ability of the rules with an explanation as to what was the reason the rule was made.

I disagree with your comments about the point of this thread.

The real point of this thread was quite obviously to yet again create a controversy over what Bob percieves as a slight against him by CAFTA (and apparently anyone currently participating in FT in eastern Canada) for not changing a rule that has been explained to him six ways from Sunday, on numerous occasions, and which he continues to harp upon relentlessly, because it does not meet his interpretation of it.

Bob steadfastly refuses to accept that for anyone participating in the sport, what he perceives as an insurmountable obstacle, is essentially a non-issue.

Bob also refuses to accept that it is totally unreasonable of him, as a non-participant, who has never yet shot an FT match, and quite possibly, never will, to expect that he can dictate his (misconcieved) notions to the CAFTA BOG, with their many years of combined experience in shooting and directing FT matches at both National and International levels.

Bob demands "fairness", yet somehow cannot wrap his head around just how unfair he has been in his maligning of the CAFTA BOG, and eastern FT shooters in general, purely on the basis of his own misinterpretations.


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