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 Post subject: storage of pellet guns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:33 pm 
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i have a question on safe storage that i have been unable to get an answer to anywhere on the rcmp site. maybe someone on here is more knowledgable on this subject. i have a beeman .177 rifle that was bought at canadian tire and shoots under 500 fps. i realize this does not need a firearms licence to buy or possess but does this rifle need to be stored the same as a real firearm and do the pellets need to be locked up separately? the reason i ask is that i also own a hatsan 135 which does require a licence and safe storage rules ( 1200 fps) and shoots the same .177 pellet as the beeman. does owning the hatsan suddenly change the storage requirements for the pellets in question?
thanks for any reply


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:43 pm 
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You can hang the beeman on the wall out of reach of the kids if you wish as under 500 fps and 4.2 fpe AG's are not required to be locked up when your not there. Same goes for pellets as their are no primers or gunpowder in lead pellets.
Still best to keep the AG's out of sight and not easily available to little hands, though there is no legal requirement to.
Out of Sight. Out of Mind :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Ammo does not have to be locked up, only stored separately. Locked in with the guns is okay, as long as they aren't handguns. Sitting on top of the locked gun cabinet is also okay. And by okay I mean legal.

Personnally, I would just lock up the gun or throw a trigger lock on it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:43 pm 
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I bought a large safe at Costco, keeps everything at the same place, clean, safe and out of reach of the kids and the crooks that could visit the house while I'm away. Wouldn't want one of my beloved airguns to get stolen by some bastard, they can take the TV and sound system but my airguns have to be safe, you can also keep other valuables in there, computer back-up on hard drive (so if some how the computers are lost I'll still have the kids pictures and vids.

Plus I'm a locksmith so I love safes and everything that can be locked. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:42 pm 
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What is "Legal" and what is "prudent" are probably two different things, especially if there are minors in the house..
For the 10 bucks that a trigger lock costs, think of all the potential grief, aggravation, and legal fees that it could save.
Darn fine return on investment!


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 Post subject: storage of pellet guns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:52 pm 
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notthesnail wrote:
Ammo does not have to be locked up, only stored separately. Locked in with the guns is okay, as long as they aren't handguns. Sitting on top of the locked gun cabinet is also okay. And by okay I mean legal.

Personnally, I would just lock up the gun or throw a trigger lock on it.


Is this the law, or being prudent? I thought there are no storage or transport rules for air guns that fall under uncontrolled firearms? Wouldn't that include ammo (BB/pellets) as well?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:58 pm 
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If your air gun is involved in an accident where someone gets shot, has there been a crime commited? If the law thinks so, then a firearm was involved, and charges will be laid accordingly. If not, then someone still got shot. The letter of the law doesn't protect you from feeling like crap.

If, as the OP stated, he already has the means, then just treat it like a firearm and store it safely.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:18 pm 
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i called an information officer a few months ago and he stated to treat them as a firearm,
having them locked up and out of view (IE: in the trunk)

Have a guncase for both pistol & rifle so the public dont get confused and call it in.
Common sense...if someone see you going to/from your vehicle with a "firearm".

Pellets can be just stored seperately from the rifle/pistol (doesnt need to be locked)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:04 pm 
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I understand that proper prudence is always wise, but my thoughts are more around legal issues arising from the storage or transport requirements.

i.e. if I had an airgun (under 500fps) in my unlocked closet with the ammo and CO2 right next to it and the cops came in and saw it, would it go to court?

Here's what I see in the CBSA guide:

“Uncontrolled” firearms are those devices that, although falling within the definition of a firearm in the Criminal Code, are exempt from specific legal requirements of the Firearms Act and its regulations, as well as from other legislative provisions. “Uncontrolled” firearms do not fall under Tariff item No. 9898.00.00, and are generally admissible into Canada. “Uncontrolled” firearms should not be subdivided into any of the non-restricted, restricted, or prohibited classes. The following types of firearms are deemed “uncontrolled”:

Low muzzle velocity/energy guns – Any barrelled weapon that is not designed or adapted to discharge projectiles at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second (500 feet per second) and at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or to discharge projectiles that are designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 metres per second (500 feet per second) and an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules. Both thresholds of 152.4 mps and 5.7 Joules must be exceeded for the firearm to be considered “controlled”. This requirement exempts firearms that fire below the threshold velocity with a standard projectile, but exceed the threshold velocity when fired with a high-velocity projectile

Note: The term air gun is a colloquial term referring to BB or pellet guns. Such guns operate either as spring-powered, gas-powered, or electrically powered. If the muzzle velocity of the air gun is less than 152.4 mps (500 fps)/5.7 joules but still able to cause serious bodily injury to a person, it may be considered an “uncontrolled” firearm. Most airsoft guns and certain types of paintball guns are considered replica firearms (see “Prohibited Devices” below).

However, this is not the firearms act. This is just the import guide for CBSA.

Also, the Firearms Act only covers and regulates the usage, storage, and transportation of non-restricted, restricted and prohibited firearms. It does not talk about anything that under 500fps and able to cause serious injury or death.

We went over this in the firearms safety training course that I attended, however, the instructors can make mistakes.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Bloodstriker wrote

Quote:
I understand that proper prudence is always wise, but my thoughts are more around legal issues arising from the storage or transport requirements. i.e. if I had an airgun (under 500fps) in my unlocked closet with the ammo and CO2 right next to it and the cops came in and saw it, would it go to court?


No, you wouldn’t go to court if the cops see it. However, you would most likely have a lot of legal problems if a smart child loaded a CO2 cartridge into an airgun, then loaded a projectile, went to a street and shot another person or even an animal. Of course this is a hypothetical case but illustrates the idea quite well.
In this country the firearm control laws are based on three legal sources: the Canada Firearms Act, the Criminal Code of Canada (Sec. 84-117) and the Orders in Council (Parliament). Every other governmental institution in this country, let it be the CBSA or the RCMP, MUST adhere to these three legal sources. According to Sec.2 p.6 of the Criminal Code every ANY airgun is technically classified as a “firearm”. However, Sec. 84 p.104 of the Criminal Code says the following: (3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are DEEMED NOT to be firearms: (d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge (i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules.
The fact that the low power airguns “are deemed not to be firearms” for certain purposes of the Criminal Code and Firearms Act simply means in legal terms that an owner of low power airguns is exempted from the specific safe storage, transportation and handling requirements as they are set out for firearms in the regulations supporting the Firearms Act. However, it is still required by other sections of the Criminal Code that some reasonable precautions be taken to use, carry, handle, store, transport, and shipped them in a safe and secure manner. Also, the low power airguns are considered to be firearms under the Criminal Code if they are used to commit a crime.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:57 pm 
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I look at it this way: It doesn't appear to be a legal requirement to store sub-500 airguns at home in the same manner as a powderburner, but it never hurts to if you have the means. Same goes if you take it out somewhere. Lock it, case it, and keep it out of sight.
Passersby tend to assume the worse when they see a gun. And LEO will have to respond if someone reports it.
Another side of this issue is that thieves love it when something of value is easy to grab. Having your nice airgun(s) displayed and unsecured (at home or in your car) is just asking for trouble if there's a break-in.
Common sense, but not always as common as you'd hope...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Trigger locks are virtually useless. They will only stop a young child from removing them. They can be knocked off with a hammer and a screwdriver without doing any damage to the gun or the lock. If you want it to be safe, keep it in a safe.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Location: N. Okanagan/Gulf Islands
Quote:
Trigger locks are virtually useless. They will only stop a young child from removing them.

But that's the main point.

RCMP Transport and Storage Brochure - Good to pack a copy with you, incase you get harrassed by an ill-informed LEO when you are transporting.
Pay attention to the OR's and the AND's..

BTW, notice that the requirements to transport a non-restricted rifle is that it be unloaded - no mention of a case, a trigger lock, or being out of sight!
Many LEO's and most of the public fail on that point, SO it is still prudent to lock and cover, just to avoid any potential hassle by the ill-informed.
It will cost you big time, even when they are proved wrong!

HTH's


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Jim_Hbar wrote:
Quote:
Trigger locks are virtually useless. They will only stop a young child from removing them.

But that's the main point.

RCMP Transport and Storage Brochure - Good to pack a copy with you, incase you get harrassed by an ill-informed LEO when you are transporting.
Pay attention to the OR's and the AND's..

BTW, notice that the requirements to transport a non-restricted rifle is that it be unloaded - no mention of a case, a trigger lock, or being out of sight!
Many LEO's and most of the public fail on that point, SO it is still prudent to lock and cover, just to avoid any potential hassle by the ill-informed.
It will cost you big time, even when they are proved wrong!

HTH's


X2!! Excellent advice. I carry copies in my Glovey and hunting box ever since Jims incident with the RCMP in Northern BC. His case has been widely publicised over the years with Copies over on CGN. But to reinforce Jim_Hbar post, here are some links of the story again as it has been a few years. Another incident along similar lines happened here in BC again last year. So it appears that there are a few RCMP out there that are still not up on the Canadian Firearm laws.

Here is the story
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/6980

Newsitem with officers response and same story as above on P 7

http://www.northeastnews.ca/backissues/ ... nenews.pdf

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:46 pm 
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scruffie wrote:
Jim_Hbar wrote:
Quote:
Trigger locks are virtually useless. They will only stop a young child from removing them.

But that's the main point.

RCMP Transport and Storage Brochure - Good to pack a copy with you, incase you get harrassed by an ill-informed LEO when you are transporting.
Pay attention to the OR's and the AND's..

BTW, notice that the requirements to transport a non-restricted rifle is that it be unloaded - no mention of a case, a trigger lock, or being out of sight!
Many LEO's and most of the public fail on that point, SO it is still prudent to lock and cover, just to avoid any potential hassle by the ill-informed.
It will cost you big time, even when they are proved wrong!

HTH's


X2!! Excellent advice. I carry copies in my Glovey and hunting box ever since Jims incident with the RCMP in Northern BC. His case has been widely publicised over the years with Copies over on CGN. But to reinforce Jim_Hbar post, here are some links of the story again as it has been a few years. Another incident along similar lines happened here in BC again last year. So it appears that there are a few RCMP out there that are still not up on the Canadian Firearm laws.

Here is the story
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/6980

Newsitem with officers response and same story as above on P 7

http://www.northeastnews.ca/backissues/ ... nenews.pdf


WOW :shock: That's some scary crap! I hope to never encounter similar cops.

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