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 Post subject: Dot Torture Pistol Drill
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:14 pm 
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I got a PT-85 in the sales recently, so I was looking around for an interesting target to use while getting to know it. I found this

http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture

Anyone else use it? It seems quite an interesting challenge. I modified it a bit to use 4 shots per dot so that I can shoot it without having to stop to reload the magazines (I have 3 for a total of 48 rounds). I guess I could work out a scheme that used all 48 if I thought about it, but I like easy :)

Dot 1 is slow fire - shoot as accurately as possible so that you have a benchmark to judge the remaining dots against. Dot two is single shots again, but trying to get a bit more of a move on. Dots 3 and 4 are a pair - raise and shoot 1 round on three, then shift to 4 and shoot 1 round. Rinse and repeat. Dot 5 is rapid fire. Dots 6 and 7 are a pair like 3&4, except double tapping on each target. Dot 8 is rapid fire with your weak hand (!). 9 & 10 are a pair, single shots, reloading between each round. That's a laugh with the double ended stick mags in the PT-85. Quick I am not. I don't have a holster, so where it says 'draw' I just go from an 'at rest' position. After dot 1 I try to keep things moving along, but I haven't put a timer on yet, so still not really adding any time pressure.

Here's my best run at 6 yards
Attachment:
doTorture1.jpg
doTorture1.jpg [ 195.6 KiB | Viewed 1646 times ]


The first few rounds come out pretty hot and high, so after the first two I adjusted POA and shot the next two shots closer to centre. Over the rest of the course I gradually had to bring POA back up to compensate for the dropping fps. PT-85 is a bit of a gas hog. Most of the dots weren't too bad, somewhat predictably I lose it a bit during rapid fire, and my weak hand is, well, weak. :)

Jim


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:40 pm 
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Location: Beautiful British Columbia
That's impressive.

I'm going to have to give that a go but I'm not expecting anything close to what you've accomplished!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:30 pm 
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You probably wouldn't find it so impressive if you saw how long it takes me, and what a dork I look trying to reload that thing. I've done the same target with the Sig p226, with a basket on the floor to catch the magazine so I can just let the one fall while I load the next. That's much cooler, but I can't keep the BBs on target :)

All good fun.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:07 pm 
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Location: Toronto
Nice shooting 8)

I can't for the life of me shoot those blowback pistols well.

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"...await the right moment for one, and only one well-aimed shot" - Vassili Zaitsev


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:08 am 
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I've done it a few times with a KWC Blackwater BB also dropping the mags into a box during reloads. At 3 meters I can keep the shots in the dots, as long as I don't try to go fast, which is difficult to do as it is a bucketload of fun ;)

Good drill. Deceptively difficult.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Location: Hill Spring, Alberta
That looks like fun!

I've printed the targets. Gonna try tomorrow.

I had my Gamo P25 outdoors today (so I could actually see the white dot sights) trying to hit my orange Princess Auto re-setting rifle target from 8 yards. Then 6 yards. Then it was time to fix bayonet and charge. I think I hit it once out of 16 times. :oops: When I hit it, there wasn't enough power to flip the paddle over the top. :shock:

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:41 pm 
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Quote:
trying to hit my orange Princess Auto re-setting rifle target from 8 yards. Then 6 yards. Then it was time to fix bayonet and charge. I think I hit it once out of 16 times.

I tried that with the PT85 last time I was at GTAC. You got one more hit than I did. Worse still, I was using a laser, so everyone knew I was missing :lol:
The dot torture drill is good fun, although I have to keep notes to remind me what I'm supposed to be doing at each stage! The weak hand target still freaks me out, I guess I should just bite the bullet and do some sessions of nothing but weak hand shooting.

Jim


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:29 pm 
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Location: Hill Spring, Alberta
Finally got around to trying it today.

My 15 yr old grandson was visiting from BC, loved my air rifles (he has one at home) and really loved the pistol. In just over 24 hours with rifles and the pistol, he went through 7 or 8 CO2 cartridges, and between 800 and 900 pellets. He ran me completely out of ammo. :shock:

Anyway, today I got more pellets and tried it. I enjoyed it a lot but I'm not sure of the procedure. I don't have a holster, but when I lower the pistol to my side, do I put on the safety, then raise the pistol and release the safety (awkward 2 hand procedure) then pull back the slide, or cock with my thumb or do I just use double action?

I'm gonna try the SA/DA version too. I hope to have time tomorrow.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:08 am 
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It's a good question. I find the safety on the PT85 very tough to use (the safety-on-the-safety is just a PITA), so I leave it on fire until I'm reloading (or putting the pistol down). Since I'm only doing this for fun, and using the safety every time ruins the fun, this seems like the best compromise to me. I could see the argument that if you were doing this for real you'd want 'draw' to equal starting from the normal carry condition, but then I don't think any real pistol has such an awful safety as the PT85! This would be a fun drill to try with the new Colt SAA, although there'd be a lot of reloading involved. :)

Actually, now you made me think about it, I've realized that I don't uncock the gun for the 'draw' either, so I guess I've been doing it wrong. Having to either cock or use double action in a lot more places would change the feel of the thing and make it more difficult.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:11 am 
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You probably already know all this, but this is my plan. 8)

I just checked this morning to see how it works, and if I fire the first pellet, then un-cock (pull trigger, release hammer gently), then re-cock to fire, I skip one pellet in the 8 pellet magazine rotation. I end up with alternate empty and loaded chambers in the magazine so I'll have to eject and adjust the magazine to get the 5th shot for dots 1 & 2. I'll need a similar routines for 3&4, 6&7.

I have two extra magazines, so I can begin with 48 pellets loaded.

Once I get the drill routine down including all the adjustments, I'll begin timing the whole thing and use that as my base-line.

I'd pretty much stopped using my pistol, but I think this'll get me going again.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:19 am 
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Hi Peter, on the PT-85 you can decock by pushing the safety fully down. When new, it didn't release any gas when I did that, so the safety was a working decocking lever. Unfortunately, that's not the case any more so I have to ease the hammer down manually to avoid unhappy surprises. Might be worth (carefully!) seeing if it works on yours too. Having to deal with the hassle of skipped cylinders would be pretty annoying, but I guess we could work out a scheme for it. Let me know how you go when you start timing - I still haven't had the courage to add that level of pressure yet!!

Jim


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:30 am 
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Location: Toronto
OK I am getting curious to try this........ perhaps this weekend.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:23 pm 
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You're right Jim.

It's easier to use the safety, then take it off, than it is to fool around taking out the magazine etc.

I shot the dots this afternoon, and got myself confused with my own instructions when to end-for-end a clip etc.

Took me a while but I got her finished.

I'll be glad when my Chrony gets here. My P-25 seems to have little power except for the first 5 or 6 shots. When I fire
5 in a row, as the cartridge gets colder, I think the fps goes down too, and some pellets actually bounce off the duct seal target.

However, it's all fun.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:19 pm 
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I swapped out the barrel on my PT-85 for a longer one (from a P17) and that helped picked the fps up a fair bit. Unfortunately there's still a considerable drop over the course of a CO2 cylinder. I guess it's just the nature of the thing.

I still get confused when to take out the mags - need to make sure there's enough rounds left in one end for the rapid fire circles :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:25 am 
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Location: Edmonton
The PT 25/85 stock should be shooting 400-450fps in 20c environment. I've had a PT85 for a long time, and general rule of thumb is forget the safety. A number of other semi's that are actually supposed to be replicas (e.g., the PX4) have used this style of safety, to the disappointment of the users. Thank goodness it's a non-auto safety and therefore unobtrusive unless you engage it -- just don't when you're going for time. As long as you're counting, mags should be an easy drop/flip/reinsert operation -- the operation is not safety-conscious.


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