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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:56 am 
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Location: Edmonton
:roll: Yeah, Well, I'll take Bob's data over Tommie Bee Bee any time.

As my seventh-grade math teacher once said, "Never trust a man who doesn't show his work." (No, actually, I think he really said, "I don't trust you; show me your work.") :lol:

Just sayin'. :)


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:51 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 11301
Location: P.G. B.C.
Virtually ALL .22 Rf's chambered for S/L/LR Rifles made today have 16" twists. Days gone by, the rifles for .22 Short had 24" twists. That is why .22 Shorts or .22 Longs (29gr. .22 short bullet at 1,200fps) do not shoot as well as .22 LR's today. The .22 LR today is designed around the standard 40gr. Bullet. Ammunition manufacturers today make what is wanted - what sells - higher velocity sells to many people and to make that happen, they lighten the bullets, in some cases, down to 30 and 32gr. These lighter bullets seldom produce the accuracy designed in to the .22 rim fire round- full weight - 40gr. at 1,080fps to 1,280fps for standard to high speed ammo.

Some "FEW" rifles shoot as well with the higher speed ammo as they do with 'standard' velocity or 'match' ammo - most do not.

Buy a 50 round box of each for testing - the only way to find out.

As I said earlier - or many be not but should have, is that WW 40gr. "Power Points" HP seem to shoot well in many rifles - & in rifles that are usually picky about ammo used.

CCI Green Box and ELI Tenex usually also shoot well.

Wholesale Sports locally seems to have a good assortment of LR ammo - as do I.

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Daryl


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:56 pm
Posts: 489
Location: SW Ontario
So I finally collected the ammo to test accuracy vs velocity. Well I was in for a surprise that stopped the test early but I will get her done. The 3 subsonic loads were CCI Green Tag (1070fps), Federal Premium Match (1080fps) and Eley Match (1085fps). The 3 HV rounds were CCI Mini-Mag (1235fps), Winchester Super X (1285fps) and Eley Force (1250fps). Lastly the hyper velocity ammo was the CCI Velocitor (1435fps), Remington Yellow Jacket HP 33grain (1500fps) and CCI Stinger 32grain (1640fps). Not much to choose from in hyper velocity and really the Velocitor 40grain RN cartridge was the only one I had hopes for.
The gun I used was my new CZ 455 Varmint (heavy barrel). I should emphasize 'new' because my inexperience with this gun led to the first problem. The second problem that ended the test was the way I mounted my new Leapers 4-16 x 44 scope. The dove tail grooves on the receiver were a true 11mm being a European gun but my rings were 3/8" which is a tad larger but are usually interchangeable. I had to tighten the rings all the way in just to hold but I wasn't happy with it.
It was a really hot sunny windless day here in southern Ontario on the day of the test. I had the rifle on a bipod and a rear sandbag since I was testing the ammo and not myself. My original idea was to do the test at 50,100 yards and then with a barrel tuner for the most promising ammo.
It took a lot of shots to zero the scope to 50 yards using CCI Standard Velocity ammo and the barrel was almost too hot to hold a finger on it.
We decided to take a walk to the target for a closer look and let the barrel cool. There was no one at the range but my son and I.
Sorry I didn't label the first four targets because I lost track of which was which except that they were all SV. I shot the first group and was immediately struck by the odd pattern that crept closer to the bulls eye with each shot. Again the barrel was really hot and we starting to realize there was a relationship between barrel temp and accuracy - like I said inexperience with powder burners. Again we walked to the target and back and the next group did the same thing. Obviously by the fifth shot the barrel was at the same temp it was zeroed at and was again accurate.
After the fourth time that happened I decided to shoot the Eley Force ammo while the barrel was still hot and the group improved quite nicely.
Now we were wondering if we should continue shooting quickly but were worried that if the barrel got too hot it could be damaged.
Fortunately we didn't have to worry about it because the now hot scope slide right off the rail. We had a good belly laugh and were glad to go home and research how to deal with a hot barrel. I've been getting some advice from the net but would appreciate the forum's advice.
Thanks,
Ed

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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 11301
Location: P.G. B.C.
Hi Ed- I would be quite interested in seeing the bottom right ammo in multiple tests - starting with a cold barrel - with 3 shots fired to 'season' it before shooting for group.

I have noted in my rifles, that it takes from 2 to 5 shots for a barrel to settle down into a different brand of design of bullet - ie: different load.

Too - when using a semi-auto rifle, I fire 2 shot downrange before I shoot for group. I do the same when out shooting field rats. Load a magazine and fire 2 shots to settle the rifle and magazine.

Question, why 6 shots with the Ely?

Note - while the WW SuperX shoot fairly well, the Power Points are better - usually.

To- expansion tests of Remington Yellow Jackets at 120yards in clay, delivered perfect mushroom expansion- picture perfect! They also do a good job on rats. My buddy also has a Butler Creek fluted blue steel .920" barrel on his Ruger 10-22 as well. Both of these rifles like Yellow Jackets, Super X and Power Points. I have a lot of Remington Golden HP's for testing - one of these days.

My .22 RF Gopher Rig. 6-18X Simmons Pro Hunter.
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Daryl


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:56 pm
Posts: 489
Location: SW Ontario
Daryl wrote:
I have noted in my rifles, that it takes from 2 to 5 shots for a barrel to settle down into a different brand of design of bullet - ie: different load

Question, why 6 shots with the Ely?

Hey Daryl, Ok I'll try firing 3 shots first when changing ammo and then see how well they group. So you don't think it's a heat related problem?
Can a barrel be damaged if it gets too hot?
That is 5 shots with the Eley ammo. That's just one shot on the edge.


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:59 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:21 am
Posts: 51
Location: San Diego, CA
Edmonton<500 wrote:
:roll: Yeah, Well, I'll take Bob's data over Tommie Bee Bee any time.

As my seventh-grade math teacher once said, "Never trust a man who doesn't show his work." (No, actually, I think he really said, "I don't trust you; show me your work.") :lol:

Just sayin'. :)


Your seventh grade math teacher wasn't a woman? Mine used to say to me 'Mark, come over here I'd like you to add this.' The total was always pleasingly accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:21 am
Posts: 51
Location: San Diego, CA
I would suggest that's your problem Daryl. When the gophers hear the downrange shots they email the other gophers a warning not to appear until you get bored with waiting for them


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:56 pm
Posts: 489
Location: SW Ontario
I've been doing a lot of reading about whether or not barrel temp can affect accuracy. The general consensus is yes but no actual temperatures were quoted. I just ordered an inexpensive 'HDE High Accuracy Non-Contact Infrared IR Temperature Gun Digital Thermometer' from Amazon to monitor barrel temp with the aim of finding a reasonable, consistent temp to shoot at. As for waiting for the barrel to get down to the same temp every few shots? Well I'd rather stick a pencil in my eye so I'll bring along some airguns to shoot while waiting.
Actually, realizing how the simplest variable could affect the outcome I'm thinking this entire test is flawed. Eley, CCI, Remington, Federal and Winchester ammunition are going to shoot differently even at the same velocity? Ideally everything would have to be the same except the amount of gun powder loaded into each shell but that's not possible with rimfire.
Oh well, I'll still do the 50 yard test for the fun of it and decide later whether to continue.
--Ed.


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:52 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 11301
Location: P.G. B.C.
palmnell wrote:
I would suggest that's your problem Daryl. When the gophers hear the downrange shots they email the other gophers a warning not to appear until you get bored with waiting for them


LOL - PROBLEM? No problem shooting rats. Multiple shots are only needed when changing ammo or just starting out with a new magazine. The first shot fliers form a fresh magazine could be misses anyway - at 75 to 110yards.

Interestingly enough, neither of my .17 HMR need 'foulers'.

I don't understand how 5 shots can heat a barrel to HOT.

Now, if you ran a pair of 25's through the rifle as fast as you could pull the trigger you would get some heat, but 5 shots?

Are you sitting out in the hot sun with a black barrel - that will heat it up.

Some guns throw fliers with heat, some don't. A floated barrel is less likely to have heat problems than one that is hard bedded into the forearm.

I've never had a .22 barrel so hot I could not hang onto it - but I have shot over 100 gophers in not much more than a couple hours. My barrel got quite warm, but not what I would call hot.

Something fairly interesting as well, if you use a 4X to 6X scope, the bottom of the PLEX reticle will normally give you a 100 yard zero if you are sighted dead on at 25 yards. Normally a 25 yard zero will also be a 50 yard zero- give or take 1/2".

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Daryl


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:54 pm
Posts: 2479
Location: Northeastern Ontario
Aged wrote:
Can a barrel be damaged if it gets too hot?

A .22LR barrel won't get too hot; you'd need to shoot for a while on full auto for that to happen. These barrels get hotter in the sun than they do from shooting. CF barrels on the other hand get so hot that they can't safely be touched. For further reading, see http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... p?t=529952


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:56 pm
Posts: 489
Location: SW Ontario
Thanks Penage Guy. That link really put my mind at ease about overheating the .22 and frees me to shoot all I want! :D
There's still the question of a hot barrel and accuracy. Maybe it's like Daryl says. I will shoot a few rounds first at my zeroing target until the barrel adjusts to the new ammo. I must say there are a lot of different coatings on all these different loads, plain grey, copper, silver, yellow and black.
Between that and monitoring the heat with the infrared thermometer I can eliminate some of the variables. I'll be at the range on Saturday and we'll see how it goes.
Ed.


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 Post subject: Re: RWS rimfire ammo
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 11301
Location: P.G. B.C.
Firing a couple or 3 shots to "condition" the barrel to that ammo's powder and bullet fouling can be game changers when shooting for group. This is nothing new with .22 semis. .22RF competition shooters have been doing this for decades- like firing off conditioning rounds when changing ammo- or firing 2 or 3 shots on the sighter if the barrel was freshly cleaned.

I find with bolt action repeating or single shot rifles, firing into the group with the next magazine does not hurt accuracy as long as the barrel was fouled first - but - loading a new magazine into a semi-auto & cycling it's bolt by hand for that first shot, will give an off shot - a bullet that most times it is not in the group. If shooting a 10-22 Ruger 'for group' or in a competition you cannot take the chance that the first round from a magazine will put that first round in the group - thus, on the sighting target it goes. this is the reason I like the large capacity magazines - for group shooting as well as when shooting running gophers.

Most centre fire barrels must also be conditioned, if changing from Moly coated bullets to bare bullets. Some barrels need as many as 10 to 15 rounds. Sometimes changing powders can cause an off shot if the fouling patterns of the other powder are different enough - sometimes it does not take much to make a drastic difference. Ed's Red powder solvent was originally designed and developed to put the first shot of a clean bench rest rifle barrel into the centre of the following group. Some do, some don't. Most sporting rifles do not, no matter what powder solvent is used.

Because the X ring on a moose, elk or deer is fairly large, having a flyer of 1 to 2" really doesn't matter at the normal ranges we shoot animals - but, if shooting gophers at 400yards, a 1 to 2" error at 100 yards, matters a lot!

On a .22, the most heat I've ever managed to get a barrel, was that black barrel on my 10-22- and I was still able to grasp the barrel in my hand- it wasn't any where near as hot as a .300 Win. Mag. gets a sporter barrel in just 3 quick shots.

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Daryl


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