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 Post subject: Legal 22 FPE Air Pistol?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:44 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
Can an air gun manufacturer design a non rpal pistol that shoots a specialized type pellet of 40 grains at 495fps....Specialized maybe by a new calibre or pellet shape so no other calibre pellets would work in this gun....Say a 27 calibre or something....This way you could not use a lighter 25 calibre pellet which would not fit in the breech properly...One could ONLY use the 27 calibre 40 grain...or 30 grain or whatever...which would deliver much higher fpe than our current pistols...Is there a physics problem with this setup?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:23 pm 
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Just came across this American guy on YouTube who is getting 13.5 fpe out of his 1322 so that would be the same as a 25 gr. pellet at 495 fps....even that would be nice so obviously the power is there for a 13.5 fpe air pistol staying below the 500 mark...which would mean a legal air pistol with the same fpe or so as the higher powered pal air rifles.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1gh1EGqqIRE

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:31 pm 
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Location: 1/2 Way From Ottawa and Montreal,
you could make one that shoots boiling balls at under 500fps and would be legal.

why is your magic number 22/fpe you need to hunt something with a pistol?


Caliber

FPS 497
Energy: 22 FPE
Pellet Weight:
40
Grain

found Eun Jin .25 Cal, 43.2 Grains, Pointed, 83ct would keep you under 500fps and give you your 22+FPE

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:38 pm 
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FRANK wrote:
you could make one that shoots boiling balls at under 500fps and would be legal.

why is your magic number 22/fpe you need to hunt something with a pistol?


Caliber

FPS 497
Energy: 22 FPE
Pellet Weight:
40
Grain

found Eun Jin .25 Cal, 43.2 Grains, Pointed, 83ct would keep you under 500fps and give you your 22+FPE


Yes...the problem is .25 calibre air guns are NOT tested with a 43.2 grain pellet so you would be way over the legal limit with the type of .25 calibre pellet they use to test fps....which is my point...A manufacturer can produce a different size pellet to be used only in a specific air pistol....thereby staying within our fpe/fps limits...doesn't have to be 22 fpe....13.5 would be sweet too...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:19 pm 
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Problem is RCMP are interpretating the laws differently. Raman was told by the RCMP tech lab. That its Either or, not AND...

So that being said, would kibosh anything over 4.2 FPE. Unless we do something. But who's going to slap the RCMP?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Location: Kingston, ON
Based on the limited info in recent threads, it seems "a" rifle with muzzle speed over 500 fps was deemed to be PAL rated despite the muzzle energy being under 4.2 fpe. The sticking point appears to be the fps. So as long as your hypothetical airgun shoots under 500 fps it would still be non PAL by the letter of the law and recent misinterpretation of it. I think you understood that from the start. There are commercially produced non-PAL .25 cal pellet guns around, both pistols and rifles. I am not aware of commercially produced "big bore" non PAL pellet guns - although I am aware of custom built ones. In a pistol, given the current climate. I would say building a big bore under 500 fps pistol with 22 fpe is probably a risky proposition.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:16 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
I see no problem, whether a .45 or .50 cal. shooting the lightest of projectiles, as in a round lead ball, the

.45 would be shooting a ball of approximately 135gr. at 495fps, for 73 fpe. The .50 cal. shooting a 185gr. ball at

495fps would be running 100.7fpe.

I have a .429"groove dia. with shallow rifling barrel liner in 4140 steel, that would make a great .429 cal pistol bl. Lets see, a

.429" pure lead ball weighs 118.6gr. so would be 64.5fpe.

This barrel is 13 1/4" long and .650" in diameter.

I also have a .54 cal. barrel, 7 1/2" long, .784" muzzle, tapered to .990". I turned this one for a ML pistol, but didn't get around to making the pistol.

At .566" groove to groove, the ball would weigh approx. 270gr. at 495fps, that's 147fpe, non-restricted.

The .41 cal. Philadelphia Deringer used by Booth to shoot Pres. Lincoln in the back of the head, actually produced only about 450fps, and (94gr. ball) and pe. This, by law, is not a restricted

handgun, however the forensic's lab suggested I register mine, as they could easily get it over 500fps with a charge of pistol powder, which would likely blow it up - sorry, not sorry

Thus, I registered it which is now a prohib., one of several I own. Lincoln was not killed by the shot however, as the ball did not penetrate his skull. The surgeon actually killed him with a

scalpel & got away with it.

It is interesting what cold case files, reopened & examined, will show, even after 130 odd years.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:04 pm 
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Location: Scotland,Ontario
I know 2 people that have .30 cal modded 2240 shooting under 495 fps.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:14 am 
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Thanks for all the helpful info...turns out I can use the JSB 30 cal because the lightest weight 30 cal pellet is 44.75 grain....which means if my new gun were to be "examined"…...the lightest pellet a "tester" could use would put me safely under 500 fps...and still give me 24 fpe@495 fps...now...the next step is to verify fps/fpe laws...its seems we have two different opinions....only one is correct....Dukemeister may be right about big bore air pistols…and I'm cautious enough to believe him.…..more research is needed...
Leadslinger:You too may be right...its either and or OR….which makes all the difference in the world..
Daryl:Interesting stuff about Lincoln…If you're right about fps/fpe laws that would be great for custom builds.….we'll see

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:35 am 
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Location: Quebec
Daryl wrote:
The .41 cal. Philadelphia Deringer used by Booth to shoot Pres. Lincoln in the back of the head, actually produced only about 450fps, and (94gr. ball) and pe. This, by law, is not a restricted handgun, however the forensic's lab suggested I register mine, as they could easily get it over 500fps with a charge of pistol powder, which would likely blow it up - sorry, not sorry

Thus, I registered it which is now a prohib., one of several I own. Lincoln was not killed by the shot however, as the ball did not penetrate his skull. The surgeon actually killed him with a scalpel & got away with it.


Do you have a source on that? According to the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassina ... ts_Lincoln

Quote:
The bullet entered Lincoln's skull behind his left ear, passed through his brain, and came to rest near the front of the skull after fracturing both orbital plates


A 94 grain ball at 450 feet per second has an energy of 42 ft lbs, at point blank range it would not fail to penetrate.

Quote:
I know 2 people that have .30 cal modded 2240 shooting under 495 fps.


See Bob's Big Bore Pistol Build

Image

Image

Average of 466 fps / 21.6 ft lbs in .30"


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 pm 
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"Do you have a source on that? According to the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassina ... ts_Lincoln"

Yes, I did. No longer in my possession. The article I read, from the Surgeon Gen. or some-such, stated "likely killed by the
"probing"" as the ball did not penetrated the skull. Of course, this is supposition as-is your statement it would penetrate.
My own Philadelphia Derringer, with a 25gr. 3F charge and patched 128gr. round ball (.45cal.) at point blank range of 4feet,
bounced back off a 2x4 came back and hit me in the pectoral muscle, just under where my chin was resting against my shoulder.
The dent in the 2x5 was 2/10" deep.


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Air Force Talon .177
HW97 KT .177
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:52 am 
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From a personal point of view, I think you guys are just begging for a no-mod regulation.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:58 am 
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Location: 1/2 Way From Ottawa and Montreal,
The law for Canada is 500+ fps and 4.2+ fpe you don't believe me look at paint ball and air-soft some air soft shot a 650 fps and still legal.
so to need a pal it must be over 500 fps and hit more then 4.2 fpe.

If you called and got different information well they don't know them self call back and talk to someone who knows.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:17 pm 
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Location: Edmonton
FRANK wrote:
The law for Canada is 500+ fps and 4.2+ fpe you don't believe me look at paint ball and air-soft some air soft shot a 650 fps and still legal.
so to need a pal it must be over 500 fps and hit more then 4.2 fpe.

If you called and got different information well they don't know them self call back and talk to someone who knows.


I know the laws, Frank. :wink: I also know that the RCMP makes up the regulations at their own pleasure. A no-mod regulation is well within their powers. Just sayin' don't thumb your nose at the man with the big stick.

Cheers. :drinkers:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:45 pm 
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Location: Greater Napanee, ON, Canada
Edmonton<500 wrote:
From a personal point of view, I think you guys are just begging for a no-mod regulation.

Amen to that. It is attention we do not need.

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