Canadian Airgun Forum

The #1 Community for Airguns in Canada!
It is currently Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:51 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours


The Canadian Airgun Forums are a place for people to discuss and learn about airguns and the airgunning sport in Canada. There are lots of discussions about airguns, airgun accessories, reviews, modification and repair information, airgun events, field target and free classifieds!

 

You need to register before you can post: click the register link to proceed. Before you register, please read the forum rules. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own pictures, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free! To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.






Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:00 pm
Posts: 60
How long can you leave a stinger cocked when hunting. For instance you might see a tree rat and have to wait for a good shot. Say an hour or two. Will that do damage to the gun?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 2054
Location: Toronto
2 hours is fine. I would keep the safety on.

It's when you go past a few days where it becomes a problem.

_________________
"...await the right moment for one, and only one well-aimed shot" - Vassili Zaitsev


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:59 pm 
Offline
Site sponsor and moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:40 pm
Posts: 6372
Location: Eastern Passage N.S.
It will not damage the gun if it is just a few hours.

_________________
René


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:17 pm
Posts: 1711
Location: Kingston
search.php?keywords=%22leave+a+springer+cocked%22&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

_________________

Duke ))))----//----------==


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 5726
Location: P.G. B.C.
My springer was a female. here she is with my little girls.


Attachments:
Mylittlegirls1988002_zps67fc1a77.jpg
Mylittlegirls1988002_zps67fc1a77.jpg [ 128.6 KiB | Viewed 379 times ]

_________________
Best Wishes
Daryl

Air Force Condor .25
Umarex Gauntlet .22
Air Force Talon .177
HW97 KT .177
HW98 .22
Brocock Concept .22
Artemis PP700S-A Reg. .22
Artemis PP800 Rebel Reg. .22
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3369
Location: Edmonton
Daryl wrote:
My springer was a female. here she is with my little girls.


Just like the rifle; often takes off on you. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:51 pm
Posts: 19
Location: QC
Daryl wrote:
My springer was a female. here she is with my little girls.


Nice springer, looks a little like a cocker.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:46 am
Posts: 4013
English Springer Spaniel... :wink:

_________________
"A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle"

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 5726
Location: P.G. B.C.
Sorry to de-rail this thread - or not. I thought a little levity wouldn't hurt.

My little girls are 38 and 36 now.

Foxton's Lady Jessica was a liver and white English Springer runt. Fully grown, she was 30 pounds, just

barely heavy enough to hit the 1900 rules for spaniels. Up to 29 pounds was a cocker, 30 to 55 pounds

was a springer, over 55 pounds was a setter. At that time, the breeds had not been successfully separated.

I'm sure it was the American Breeding Association which successfully separated the breeds. I do not know

how long that took, but in 1900, a cocker, springer or setter female could give birth to all 3 breeds. Weight at 9 months,

I think, is when breed was decided for that pup.

Now, it was only one book I read on this subject and it was a long time ago, but that is how I recall it.

_________________
Best Wishes
Daryl

Air Force Condor .25
Umarex Gauntlet .22
Air Force Talon .177
HW97 KT .177
HW98 .22
Brocock Concept .22
Artemis PP700S-A Reg. .22
Artemis PP800 Rebel Reg. .22


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1218
Location: United States
Imo the fear of leaving a coil spring cocked is mostly thanks to Crosman's marketing campaign showing a cartoon of exactly your scenario. They neg coils to the masses and push their new gas spring as a must have fix. Reminds me of Beeman pushing silicone chamber lube and .20 cal guns. I think Crosman stopped doing this, hopefully bc it's bs, but I haven't been keeping up w/ what they do. The only thing that happens is the coil will take a set (bend the wire which leaves it shorter and weaker), but it does this no matter what and it happens very quickly with normal use. How much it sets depends on the springs quality, meaning its metal, heat treat and winding. So a cheapo chinese made spring will bend more than a good German or US one (on avg). My FWB 124D spring is like new yet 30+yrs old and god only knows how many k shots thru it or how long it's been left cocked. I know when hunting, or waiting for something in the yard, I leave it cocked which can be many hours. So unless your guns is barely used, it already has taken a set. Plus you'd rather have it set bc while in the process of setting your accuracy will change. It's one of many things that happen during break-in.
So imo you can leave it cocked for as long you like. I've left them cocked overnight or longer by accident with no loss in velocity (I keep records), this is bc it cannot set/bend any more unless you compress it further, which you can't really do unless you shim it. Shimming will usually net some fps, but the spring will set/bend some more as a result so you'll end up somewhere between your new found power and the orig power very quickly. Again it depends on the quality.
I recall one gun I left cocked much longer, but I don't know how long since I don't remember when I cocked it. If by chance you break the spring, it was going to break anyway so don't associate the two. In fact I'd be happy to be rid of the defective unit rather than have it break in the field. If having the gun operational is important, I'd have a spare spring on hand which you can swap in the field if needed using min tools. Well, I think most people can... Like a generic Crosman B18 I can swap using a #2 Phillips and my tiny 4" Crescent wrench. If you want you can store the spring, and even tools, in the butt w/ foam. A wood stock you can drill a hole/s for it/them.
I've never broken one but I tune the gun and make a piston liner which greatly dampens spring vibration. Imo the vibration is hard on them, which may explain my luck, but I do it to silence the super annoying spring twang. If it bothers you enough to do something about it I can explain how; chevota at hotmail and I'll send the how-to, which includes tons of other stuff you can do to break barrel guns, including converting to gas spring if you really must. Not all guns can accept one (Diana/B25 for example), but many can and the Crosman B18 is especially easy to do.
The rest of the gun could care less if it's cocked. Just don't forget it's cocked and put a hole in something that isn't supposed to have one ;) Which of course, if you handle the gun properly, will not happen anyway but everyone I know has made said holes one way or another. I could go on a safety rant, meaning the guns mechanical safety and why I do NOT believe in them, but I'll give you guys a break since I likely already posted tmi ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:17 pm
Posts: 1711
Location: Kingston
Chevota wrote:
So imo you can leave it cocked for as long you like. I've left them cocked overnight or longer by accident with no loss in velocity (I keep records),

I recall one gun I left cocked much longer, but I don't know how long since I don't remember when I cocked it.


You and me both, but at the sake of
Attachment:
deadhorse.gif
deadhorse.gif [ 8.67 KiB | Viewed 189 times ]

There are recorded data for springers, unfortunately I don't remember the source (May be Cardews??) that shows there is a drop in power with weeks cocked. I know I've posted this before with proper references...just can't find it atm.
Attachment:
Weeks Cocked.JPG
Weeks Cocked.JPG [ 65.26 KiB | Viewed 189 times ]

_________________

Duke ))))----//----------==


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1218
Location: United States
Duke; If nothing else, your post was worth the awesome .gif, which I saved for future viewing and similar post usage :)
I of course do not believe the chart at all, unless maybe there was originally a decimal in front of the % numbers. Some of those show a 50% power loss! I'm not sure how that's physically possible w/o heating the spring. Plus they show it being very consistent via the multiple guns, so now I'm sure there's a missing decimal point, or it's a flat out lie. Maybe I'm high but I'll bet your $20 I'm right ;)
My 124 has, considering its age, been cocked for a long time if you consider cumulative time. It's almost tempting to leave a gun cocked for 25 weeks to see what happens. I know what'll happen but interesting none the less. Good thing my cars valve springs have not seen said chart ;)
My truck had exceptionally strong valve springs, and they're pushing the limits of their size and space, and near coil bind when compressed. So pretty much like in an airgun. They too took a set very quickly and didn't budge from that point on. Also note the heat they see and the extreme cycle rate, so I'm actually amazed they last at all, yet they do. If they lost as little as 5%, maybe even less, from where they are now I'd know it right away via valve float. I run them w/ hyd and solid lifters btw, the latter holding some valves open the entire time the eng is off. So they've got some serious compressed time logged in, considering I bought them ~'92 and ran them till ~2010? It kinda applies to any valve spring if you think about it, i just had an exceptionally stressful example.
The Cardews also say a springer only needs like 6" of barrel. For their weak-ass guns of 1970 it may have be true, but not even close today. Yet people believe it applies to all guns today as if it were some law of physics. I suppose it's possible the same applies to springs? I know steel is better now but it wasn't as bad back than as that chart suggests. I also believe that regardless of the metal, a set will take place in a short period of time and after that nothing will happen. Or maybe it has a half life so the half happens in xx time and so on, which still means virtually nothing will happen after a week. That chart gives the impression it never ends, like after a few years the spring is as limp as noodle.
I'm not digging my heels in and arguing w/ you at all, just having fun and giving my opinion based on my experiences. You may leave, or beat, the dead horse as you see fit ;) Off topic but whenever I hear "dead horse" I think of a post where a guy said he shot a bloated one w/ a high powered rifle and a fine mist of liquid exited the hole, which got on him and no doubt inhaled. He said it was rank and completely disgusting, and said his best description if it was "Horse Squeezins". So now all I can think of is that. Maybe add a cloud of squeezins to that gif!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:51 pm
Posts: 19
Location: QC
Chevota wrote:
I also believe that regardless of the metal, a set will take place in a short period of time and after that nothing will happen. Or maybe it has a half life so the half happens in xx time and so on, which still means virtually nothing will happen after a week. That chart gives the impression it never ends, like after a few years the spring is as limp as noodle.


To me the graphic appears to be logarithmic. The power will eventually hit an asymptote. The difference between 4 and 12 weeks is much bigger than between 12 and 25 weeks.
Your example with valve springs is good, but maybe valve springs and other highly stressed springs are designed so that they operate properly when they hit the asymptote and don't loose much power over time anymore? If springs for air guns were designed this way, they would have to be maintained in a compressed state for a long period of time at the factory, otherwise they would be way too strong for their air guns at the start of their life.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:17 pm
Posts: 1711
Location: Kingston
GLTRV wrote:
To me the graphic appears to be logarithmic. The power will eventually hit an asymptote.

You are correct, and so is Chevota on the observation that 25% drop in velocity is equivalent to 50% drop in power. The raw data can be found here (not the original source) and implies it was Gaylord who did the tests and it was quite a carefully done exercise.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/li ... Cocked.htm

_________________

Duke ))))----//----------==


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
News News Site map Site map SitemapIndex SitemapIndex RSS Feed RSS Feed Channel list Channel list

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

phpBB SEO