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 Post subject: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:23 am
Posts: 2628
Location: Somewheres near the Atlantic
Well I filed a ATIP. Back with the Umerax Legends Cowboy fiasco. I got written proof that they are making their own laws. Plus the gun never was sent to them, to determined the FPS.

We all seen this, where it said AND ?

Quote:
1. Air guns that are firearms for purposes of both the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code

These are air guns with both a high muzzle velocity (greater than 152.4 metres or 500 feet per second) and a high muzzle energy (greater than 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot-pounds). The "muzzle velocity" is the speed of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, normally expressed in metres per second or feet per second. The "muzzle energy" is the energy of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, expressed in joules or foot-pounds. Air guns need to meet both standards to be classified as firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act.

These high-powered air guns are subject to the same licence and registration requirements as a conventional firearm. Owners and users are also required to store, transport, display and handle them safely in accordance with the regulations supporting the Firearms Act.


Well the ATIP has them saying And/Or. Which CSS said in a call, they said that. So the SFSS is not following the Criminal code.

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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:29 pm
Posts: 6106
Location: Okanagan,BC
:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:29 pm
Posts: 6106
Location: Okanagan,BC
wllm995 wrote:
:roll:


I was commenting on the absurd nature of the actual definition of the law conflicting with the interpretation of the law....


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:51 am
Posts: 224
Location: Richmond, BC
They make up their own bs laws..... I had a butterfly knife Comb confiscated and when i sent a written response, and was told it was classified as a weapon....


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:14 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Laval, Qc
I was actually thinking about the application and significance of the firearms law and how it is not easy to uderstand. In particular, how it applies to my Ace-in-the-Hole. It is a Colt revolver inspired design that shoots at a maximum of 340fps, is available for purchase in Canada, but is it legal according to the code?

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-f ... ir-eng.htm
3. Air guns that are replica firearms
These are air guns not powerful enough to cause serious injury or death, but designed to resemble a real firearm with near precision. Replica firearms, except for replicas of antique firearms, are classified as prohibited devices.

By the way, I do not mean to highjack the thread, but only to give another example of the inconsistencies and unclear definitions used and how it makes it hard for people to practice good, safe and legal airgun activities.

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Legends Ace-In-The-Hole (pellet)
GF529 airsoft w/red-dot


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:29 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:23 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Canadian Prairies
With respect to the Legends Cowboy Lever Action, perhaps the problem is the manufacturer lists it as <7.5 Joules muzzle energy at up to 180m/s (590 fps) to fall below the German market limits:
https://www.umarex.com/products/product-universe/classic/co2-powered/5.8394-1.html
https://www.umarex.com/fileadmin/manuals/5.8394-1.pdf pg. 3
Quote:
In Germany airsoft guns with a muzzle energy of no more than 0.5 J are exempt from the gun law,[5] while air guns with a muzzle energy of no more than 7.5 J may be acquired without a firearms license.[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy


For Canada 5.7 joules (4.2 ft-lbs) is the deciding value IF rated over 152.4 m/s (500 fps) by the manufacturer.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/air_gun-arme_air-eng.htm #1

By calculation with a 'standard' 5.1 grain BB at 600 fps the Legends Cowboy produces 5.53 joules (4.08 ft-lbs).
https://www.easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/muzzle-energy-calculator.php

So it perhaps should be considered as below the muzzle energy limit for Canada, but does Umarex provide this value for Canada?

As stated in the ATIP, testing one specimen doesn't seem to matter - they want manufacturer design specification (although this wording doesn't appear on the RCMP page).

So, time for Umarex to provide a specific muzzle energy value for the Canadian market? Or will they just reduce the velocity on a variant model?




A-guy:
If you consider your Ace in the Hole vs airsoft guns under the Replica section:
Using the calculator listed above (Ek=1/2mv^2)
The Ace produces 2.44 joules (1.8 ft-lbs) with a 7.0 grain pellet (say RWS Hobby or Diabolo Basic) at the velocity of 340 fps you gave.
An airsoft replica at 340 fps with a .20 gram airsoft BB (3.08 grain) produces 1.09 joules (0.8 ft-lbs) energy. Less than half your Ace. Even at the 366 fps given on the RCMP example , the airsoft still only produces 1.25 joules, and still less than half your Ace.
I don't think the Ace is considered a low-power replica, it is likely in the 'deemed non-firearm' category.


My 2 cents.

ColdAir


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 5883
Location: P.G. B.C.
I have never understood the exact replica prohib. rulings. Everyone here knows most or at least some of them are exact replicas and thus
according to the law as written, should be prohibited.
In Canada some have orange or red plastic muzzles and are clear plastic, obviously not a real firearm, but many are solid black & are exact replicas
and some are even made of steel. I think in the States, they ALL have to have coloured plastic muzzles.
Why are the black ones not illegal to have here in Canada?

From what I can "see", the law was to keep non-lethal look-a-likes off the street, so if someone points what looks like a real gun at a police officer
the police officer has reason to believe the gun is real and is justified in shooting them until they fall down and are non threatening or disarmed
as in dropping the weapon. Because it is illegal to be in possession of a 'replica' non-gun, the police should never be in the position of shooting someone
with a non-gun. It's really screwy.

And yes - leadslinger is right - some of them make up their own rules. Oft times, it actually depends on which officer you talk to - even when concerning
traffic laws.

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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3500
Location: Edmonton
Strange? Yes. Ridiculous? Indeed. Even from a short distance, what's the difference between an "exact" replica airsoft gun and an "exact" replica that does not shoot? Well, one shoots, but not lethally. The other one is prohibited. Be that as it may, at least for now that's in our favour.


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:34 am 
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Posts: 513
Location: Komoka Ont.
I think part of that law was to prevent under age persons from having replica hand guns which you could buy at hobby store and assemble, although I dont know the status of airsoft guns because they seem to have no problem looking like the real thing. As far as velocity and energy the manufacturer has to make and state that themselves. I had purchased a .177 rifle that claimed on the box velocity under 500fps using 10.5gr pellets and this by a renowned european manufacturer. I dont think its a good idea getting the powers that be into the habit of testing and classifying pellet guns on a regular basis.

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When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
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Location: P.G. B.C.
So - does the "replica law" allow air soft, but rule against the totally non-firing replicas?

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Daryl


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:10 pm
Posts: 367
Location: Winnipeg MB
I think a number of very good points have been raised in this discussion.

Getting back to the original point, it would appear that if the airguns retailers got together with the Umarex USA, and got them to send their complete design specifications to the RCMP, possibly along with a sample airgun, the decision might have been different (i.e. got it allowed as a non-PAL airgun as less than 5.7 J).

Unfortunately, would appear that, is as was previously reported, someone wanted to jump the line on the classification issue, to be first to sell it in Canada, and did not want to take the time needed for a proper decision, and just took the easiest path, with the least resistance from the authorities and just get it classified as non-restricted, licence needed to buy and own. I suspect a non-PAL classification would have taken weeks to get.

I also suspect it is much more difficult to get the classification changed to non PAL once it has been classified as requiring a PAL, than it was to get it originally classified as PAL. So good luck with those that want to get the Cowboy Lever Action changed to non-PAL.

In conclusion, did Leadslinger determine from the access to information request, which vendor requested the classification without providing a sample and the full mfg. specs? And if they agreed to a possibly incorrect classification, only to speed up the approval process?

Would be interesting for the buying community to know who is helping the community and who is only interested in being 1st to market regardless of the ramification to the whole airgun community.

Although parts of the legislation is clear, if you spend the time to read it carefully, parts, like what is a replica, are vague and open to a lot of discretion on the part of the authorities. This is where all the problems arise.


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:52 am
Posts: 2608
Location: Caronport, Saskatchewan
Actually this umarex gun after testing truly is a PAL rated gun, and shoots over 5.7 joules so there is nothing that needs to be changed in this instance. One thing we do not want to do is make the firearms program decide they need to test every gun we want to bring in, instead of using velocity tests from the manufacturer, because then we'll probably be waiting much longer to get any new guns into Canada under the exempt category.
As is I think it's a pretty good system.
Regards,
Wes



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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:23 pm
Posts: 3066
Location: Northern Ontario
Umarex has told me they will offer a CDN spec version of the lever action as they were unaware of the quick to market deal. They were not to pleased about it either.

The replica gun law was intended mostly for model guns. It does not apply to most airguns, as they exceed the velocity / energy requirement, and does not apply to most airsoft guns as most meet the velocity / energy requirements.

Low powered airsoft, like some spring powered guns do not meet the velocity requirements, and therefore must have clear frames to be legal to import.

"These are air guns not powerful enough to cause serious injury or death, but designed to resemble a real firearm with near precision. Replica firearms, except for replicas of antique firearms, are classified as prohibited devices.

In particular, some air guns commonly known as air soft guns may fall into this category. These are devices that have a low muzzle velocity and muzzle energy, and that usually discharge projectiles made out of a substance such as plastic or wax rather than metal. An airsoft gun, firing a .20g 6mm plastic pellet with a muzzle velocity below 111.6 m/s (366 fps), and resembling with near precision an existing make and model of a firearm, other than an antique firearm, is a replica firearm and therefore a prohibited device.

Although replica firearms are prohibited, individuals may keep those they owned on December 1, 1998. It is not necessary to have a licence to possess them, and they do not need to be registered."

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-f ... ir-eng.htm

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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:23 pm
Posts: 3066
Location: Northern Ontario
Daryl wrote:
So - does the "replica law" allow air soft, but rule against the totally non-firing replicas?


Yes. You can only buy non-firing replicas of antique guns (pre 1898, not sure if caliber restrictions would apply to replicas)

Back when they made the law, you could get all the replica guns, mostly made in Spain that you wanted. You can keep them if you bought them before the law came into force.

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson.


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 Post subject: Re: RCMP and Airguns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Location: Caronport, Saskatchewan
That's great they are going to offer a non pal version! It wouldn't have changed anything about the present version though. Airgunsource and others tested the gun after they finally got some and they were shooting too fast.
The argument started I believe over some blanket statements made about guns being over 500fps automatically being pal rated, but it ended up this gun velocity is enough over to make it over 5.7 joules. This is coming from different dealers than the one that got it classified as PAL rated.
This version ended up being rated correctly in the end, that's what ultimately matters. If it was a wrong rating, then we'd have reason to go to umarex and get the tests to give to the firearms program to get things changed. It seems like by the letter leadslinger got they would have changed the rating if there was a sample velocity test done by umarex showing the energy was below 5.7 joules


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