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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 10:41 pm 
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Location: Edmonton
leadslinger wrote:
Trevor wrote:
Dukemeister wrote:

I was listening to the radio today and the dj was interviewing a retired police officer who was reacting to the ban on assault style weapons and during the interview basically called for the banning of all pistols- with provisions for legitimate target shooters such as having to store all pistols or firing pins at the range. He also made a comment about airguns stating it's legal to own them in Halifax but you better not try and use them. Not loving that.


Most vocal officers are un educated, and their opinion means squat. Media just picks one that they can spin the liberal agenda. He knows all too well that where the guns are coming. I know because I had media come up to me before and ask to do stories on the military. I knew what they were going to do, I wasn't having it.

Because I know alot of local police. Town, RCMP, HRP, that are gun owners. My buddy department, more than 1/2 the department is effected by this gong show... Central storage doesn't work. Take my club for example. 300+ members. Its a small hunting shack in the mountains, without power, no security cameras. Another 700+ members and a old farm house, sure might be a big more secured, but don't have the room for every members firearms. Then take huge clubs in Ontario with 1000s of members, and probably 3x the amount of guns.

At one part of my life, I had 3 gun cabinets full, and I mean FULL.


Your opinion, perhaps, Ken, but it lacks in anything substantial from a discussion point of view (e.g., how does your educational background compare to the average Canadian civil servant in the law enforcement sector?) As an expert in public relations, I can tell you no one in law enforcement other than assigned professionals address the public on behalf of his/her agency. I'll agree that the media loves to talk to people in the sector who will cast a vote to the liberal side, but I'm also prepared to say that, by far, those people in the sector speaking from a personal viewpoint, do not support enhanced gun control. I refer you to virtually any discussion on this forum (and its referenced outsources) regarding the personal opinion of any person in the law enforcement sector (many of which are personal because they are currently retired and cannot/do not speak for the branch from which they have experience).


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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 10:44 pm 
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Location: Somewheres near the Atlantic
Daryl wrote:
Not a gong show - the wording of the "NEW" law is misleading, can be "perhaps" misinterpreted.


Well I had a different word, but it wouldn't be appropriate for this site.

Daryl wrote:
BTW- can you tell me when the last gun crime in Canada was committed with an assault-style weapon?
I haven't seen a list of what the last murderer in NS used. Does anyone know?



Quebec Mosque shooting 2017 - Shooter used a VZ58.

2014. New Brunswick. Guy shot 5 police officers, killing 3 with a M305 ( M14 style )

They don't say what the NS shooter used. But have a feeling that the officer MAY had a Police Carbine ( AR15 ) in the trunk and was used against. They wouldn't want to say that the shooter used their own weapon against them.

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 11:05 pm 
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Edmonton<500 wrote:
Your opinion, perhaps, Ken, but it lacks in anything substantial from a discussion point of view (e.g., how does your educational background compare to the average Canadian civil servant in the law enforcement sector?) As an expert in public relations, I can tell you no one in law enforcement other than assigned professionals address the public on behalf of his/her agency. I'll agree that the media loves to talk to people in the sector who will cast a vote to the liberal side, but I'm also prepared to say that, by far, those people in the sector speaking from a personal viewpoint, do not support enhanced gun control. I refer you to virtually any discussion on this forum (and its referenced outsources) regarding the personal opinion of any person in the law enforcement sector (many of which are personal because they are currently retired and cannot/do not speak for the branch from which they have experience).


Clearly you haven't had anyone come up to you and ask you a question just to try and get you in trouble. I was military, in downtown Halifax. You be surprised the amount of questions people try and ask, just to spin what you say. Getting coffee, etc. So I'm well aware of the PR rep, every organization has one. But still people speak and have their opinions, that may or may not represent the organization. But in this case, this retired police officer is dead wrong. Doesn't take much research to realize central storage is a bad idea, also removal of firing pin. Because face it, you cannot go a week, without someone looking for a bolt, their Grandfather stored else wheres.

Look at Bill Blair, he's never right and he was Police. So he knows what hes trying to do won't work. Thus empathizing me saying, Most vocal.

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:31 pm 
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Posts: 7005
Location: P.G. B.C.
leadslinger wrote:
Daryl wrote:
Storage at "centralized" lockups or gun ranges will not work- period. Most gun clubs in Canada do not have full time
range officers who could possibly handle the situation, but who is responsible for the guns and handling of them and
the ammo (when the place is broken into and all are stolen)? Pierre Trudeau's government spot of this and it was shot
down - discarded from the legislation. Even they did not try to make anti-gun legislation law through an order in council.
It is not only highly irregular, it is illegal.
Oh BTW - if a 12 bore has screw-in chokes but they are not for steel shot, it is possible the dimensions of the 'bore' without
the tube installed, will be under 20 mm instead of being over. We checked a friend's shotgun today and it's OK.
Our local rod and gun club has over 1,400 members.
Guess how many guns THEY have? I have no idea, but know I own around 50 & that is a low number compared to some guys I know.


The 12Ga/10Ga gong show, was a false alarm, they are safe and not included in the ban.

Quote:
Bill Blair
@BillBlair
Earlier today, the @CSSA_CILA
issued a statement alleging that our government is banning 12 and 10 gauge shotguns. This is absolutely incorrect and we will be reaching out to them to correct their misunderstanding. (1/2)

Bill Blair
@BillBlair
·
4h
Replying to
@BillBlair
Both 10 and 12 gauge shotguns are under the 20mm provision, and thus not subject to the prohibition. Our government is taking action to protect Canadians by banning assault-style weapons – not those used for hunting. The truth matters. (2/2)


Apparently, the RCMP disagree with Blair.

The truth matters.

This morning, the RCMP confirmed the first 12-gauge shotgun prohibited under the new Order-in-Council.

The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.

RCMP Technical Unit Supervisor, Tim Hobbs, confirmed this firearm would be classified as prohibited in a phone call with a prominent firearms dealer.

See this firearm being measured - see for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGpz-2aBYk
(guys, copy paste that and see for yourselves and why the RCMP ruling on this gun.
They do not care what the politician intends, but what the actual words mean)


That’s why we asked for the legal opinion of one of Canada’s top firearm lawyers, Edward L Burlew LL.B. iii

Solomon Friedman LL.B., another respected lawyer well-versed in firearms law, agrees with Mr. Burlew’s opinion.

“Your standard 12-gauge shotgun, most people think it has a bore of 18.5 millimeters,” he told CBC Radio, “but modern shotguns are actually over-bored – they’re larger than 18.5 millimeters to allow you to screw in attachments called chokes. It’s very common. Most modern shotguns are made that way and that they are almost all larger than 20 millimeters.” iv

If Minister Blair doesn’t want to listen to the opinion of two experts in Canadian firearms law, perhaps he will agree with the experts in one of the agencies he oversees.

The Canadian Border Services Agency (CBSA) Memorandum D19-13-2, issued May 29, 2019, defines BORE as:

the inside of the barrel of a firearm, from the throat to the muzzle, through which the projectile travels. v

By the CBSA’s definition, it may be all 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotguns – not just those with removable chokes – are now Prohibited firearms because they do not consider the forcing cone, the “throat” of the barrel, which exceeds the 20 mm maximum bore diameter specified in SOR/2020-96.

Will Minister Blair is support the CBSA opinion that meshes with two of Canada’s top legal experts in firearms law?

Or will he toss them under the bus because he can’t admit he made a huge mistake?

We demand Minister Bill Blair immediately rescind SOR/2020-96 until such time as he can figure out what he’s doing.

It’s clear he hasn’t figured out what he’s doing yet, and all Canadian hunters and sport shooters may pay the price for his incompetence.

Fixing this particular (among many) problem requires the addition of two little words: “except shotguns.” That it is so easy to fix yet Blair refuses to make the change, tells us the wording was intentional. Minister Bill Blair promised to call us the next day to clarify the OiC. Two and a half days later... we're still waiting. More to come. - TB

-30-

i https://myemail.constantcontact.com/For ... VZNyF4JSg4

ii https://www.facebook.com/williamsterlin ... 2193286684

iii https://s3.amazonaws.com/CSSA/PDF/SOR20 ... otguns.pdf

iv https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1734575683738

v CBSA Memorandum D19-13-2 | Importing and Exporting Firearms, Weapons and Devices - Page 2. https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publication ... -2-eng.pdf | HTML Version: https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publication ... 2-eng.html

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:40 pm 
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Posts: 7005
Location: P.G. B.C.
So- the only 12 bore I have that is a legal to hunt with, is my London made "Field" SxS that has .730" bores, ie: 18.5mm.
It was made before 1890 and has 2 1/2" chambers - bet you can't find ammo for it locally.
Yes- I load my own, black powder only due to it's age and damascus barrels.

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:30 pm 
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Posts: 3885
Location: Somewheres near the Atlantic
I found that waterfowl hunting, in a 2012 study. Brings 327 million to the Economy.. Wonder how this ban will effect that? Did they even think about the Economy?

https://whc.org/waterfowl-hunting/

Quote:
Waterfowl hunting activities contribute about $327 million annually to the economy, roughly 18% of the $1.8 billion invested in hunting and trapping activities. This economic contribution is not easily replaced by other nature-related activities.

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 7005
Location: P.G. B.C.
No of course, not - their only thought is virtue signalling. That, and raising taxes to cover anything they cause through their virtue-signally-legislation.
In retrospec, my Mossy's 12 bore's muzzle with choke removed is .900", however the ACTUAL bore itself is only .735/.740, well under the 20mil.
'Course, with the choke removed, to the anti-gun police force who may be enforcing this new ruling, it's the letter of the law and that means prohib.

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Last edited by Daryl on Fri May 08, 2020 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3872
Location: Edmonton
leadslinger wrote:
Edmonton<500 wrote:
Your opinion, perhaps, Ken, but it lacks in anything substantial from a discussion point of view (e.g., how does your educational background compare to the average Canadian civil servant in the law enforcement sector?) As an expert in public relations, I can tell you no one in law enforcement other than assigned professionals address the public on behalf of his/her agency. I'll agree that the media loves to talk to people in the sector who will cast a vote to the liberal side, but I'm also prepared to say that, by far, those people in the sector speaking from a personal viewpoint, do not support enhanced gun control. I refer you to virtually any discussion on this forum (and its referenced outsources) regarding the personal opinion of any person in the law enforcement sector (many of which are personal because they are currently retired and cannot/do not speak for the branch from which they have experience).


Clearly you haven't had anyone come up to you and ask you a question just to try and get you in trouble. I was military, in downtown Halifax. You be surprised the amount of questions people try and ask, just to spin what you say. Getting coffee, etc. So I'm well aware of the PR rep, every organization has one. But still people speak and have their opinions, that may or may not represent the organization. But in this case, this retired police officer is dead wrong. Doesn't take much research to realize central storage is a bad idea, also removal of firing pin. Because face it, you cannot go a week, without someone looking for a bolt, their Grandfather stored else wheres.

Look at Bill Blair, he's never right and he was Police. So he knows what hes trying to do won't work. Thus empathizing me saying, Most vocal.


Not sure what that has to do with my point, but yes, many times. "You have the right to remain silent."


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:01 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
In case you haven't seen this .....
BCWF Logo
BCWF Email Header

Letter to the Honourable Bill Blair

May 8th, 2020

Dear Minister Blair,

I am writing to bring your attention to what I can only believe is an accidental error. We trust that once you become aware of this oversight, you will speedily move to make the appropriate corrections.

By including firearms used by millions of Canadian hunters and sport shooters, you not only violated your previous promise not to do so, but you inadvertently penalized millions of law-abiding firearms owners, both hunters and sport shooters, and destroyed hundreds of small Canadian businesses that sell firearms and other sporting equipment, all without increasing public safety. It serves no good public safety purpose to deliberately alienate one of the most law-abiding segments of our community.

Contrary to your promises made earlier, the recent ban on "assault-style firearms," inappropriately included a large number of sporting rifles and shotguns. For example, on 31 January 2020, a spokesperson in your office stated, "We … will not target guns designed for hunting. Hunters, farmers, and law-abiding recreational gun owners will be treated with fairness and respect as we work together to keep our communities safe."

https://thepostmillennial.com/bill-blai ... Fs-CgDooKQ

The ban casts an incredibly wide net. Apparently, inadvertently, it ensnares a number of civilian rifles and shotguns that are widely used by hunters and sport shooters across Canada. Knowing that you are an honourable person, it is inconceivable for us to believe your office would intentionally ban hundreds of thousands of firearms used legitimately by millions of Canadians in a safe and responsible manner. If not rescinded, this would be a devastating blow to Canadian hunters and sport shooters as well as to the Olympic shooting sports.

Acting on behalf of 43,000 B. C. Wildlife Federation members, I request that you instruct your office to remove the many civilian rifles and shotguns that are on this list, that have been inadvertently prohibited through carelessly expediting the drafting of this Order-in-Council. It is inconceivable that it serves any public safety purpose to ban standard large-calibre hunting rifles and common semi-automatic rifles. The Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 that are banned are among the most common firearms in the country, used by hunters, sport shooters, and agriculturalists.The announcement of the new prohibitions was entitled, "a ban on assault-style weapons," although the ban casts an exceptionally wide net. To be sure, it includes firearms that resemble military firearms, which have been labelled "assault-style weapons," but it also includes an amazingly wide sample of firearms and militaria. In addition to banning common sporting firearms, the ban also includes: mortars, crew-served anti-tank weapons, missile launchers, small-bore rifles, Airsoft guns, a bizarre array of harmless contraptions also called "guns." The variety is truly mind-boggling.

https://pm.gc.ca/en/news/news-releases/ ... e-firearms

Perhaps amusingly, it appears your government may have prohibited the beloved T-shirt launcher that is featured prominently at many baseball and basketball games as well as the dreaded potato gun. Whether or not this was intentional, Canada will not be safer for it, and sports fans may not be pleased. Perhaps the ban may have also intentionally eliminated the fireworks launchers that produce such awesome displays on Canada Day, although many Canadians will be disappointed. Your office has indeed cast a wide net – and all for public safety.

It might help educate your staff if I point out that gang violence is the most prominent threat to public safety in Canada, not licensed firearms owners, whether hunters, sport shooters, or Canadians who own firearms for historical, cultural, agricultural, or as part of their military or police service. According to Statistics Canada data, almost half (47%) of firearm homicides are gang related. Lawful firearm owners are rarely involved. Just 2% of accused murderers had a valid firearms license.

Licensed gun owners are much less likely to be murderous than other Canadians. As Professor Gary Mauser reported to the Senate of Canada, licensed gun owners had a homicide rate of 0.67 per 100,000 licensed gun owners over the 11-year period (2006-2016). In contrast, the average national homicide rate (including gun owners) was 2.12 per 100,000 adults during the same period.

As I'm confident you know, hunters are law-abiding and bring value to their communities.

Over 1.3 million Canadians, in all provinces and territories, have a hunting license. You may be surprised to learn that roughly half of Canada's hunters live in larger cities. Hunting spending in Canada totaled $5.9 billion in 2018. The resulting contribution to GDP was $4.1 billion. Hunting supported 33,000 jobs and generated just under $2 billion in labour revenue.

https://www.conferenceboard.ca/research ... t-shooting

Many Canadian families and Indigenous peoples depend upon hunting to provide food for the family table through legal harvesting, with the added benefit of getting out in the wilderness, as well as spending time with family and friends.Hunters are the largest contributors to conservation, as the money they pay for licenses goes into securing conservation lands or funding projects to manage wildlife.

The ban may also catch shotguns used in trap and skeet as well as hunting. Millions of Canadians enjoy target sports and own these types of firearms, including Olympic athletes. An estimated 1.4 million Canadian target shooters spent over $2.6 billion in 2018. This includes shotgun sports, rifle and handgun target shooting. The target sports bring value to Canada and to the communities that host the meets, including tourism and supporting small businesses, often in small towns where the revenue is sorely needed. This spending boosted GDP by $1.8 billion, supported 14,000 jobs, and generated $868 million in labour revenue (2018).

Canada has a long and proud history of competitive marksmanship. Throughout the 20th Century and into the 21st, Canadians have volunteered to help protect the free world from aggression. It is important for Canadian national sovereignty that Canadian civilians be prepared to participate in military activities in times of national need. Times like world war II, Korean War, Viet Nam, and more recently, in Afghanistan.

To sum up, we trust that once you become aware of this oversight, you will speedily move to make the appropriate corrections. The ban casts too wide a net to be targeted for public safety. It serves no good public safety purpose to deliberately alienate a law-abiding segment of our community, all while spending billions of Canadian taxpayer dollars.



Yours in Conservation, 

Mr. Bill Bosch

President

BC Wildlife Federation


Copies To:


The Right Honourable Justin Trudeau, Premier of Canada

Mr. Joël Lightbound, Louis-Hébert, MP, Parliamentary Secretary of the Minister of Public Safety & Emergency Preparedness

Mr. Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister of Public Safety Canda

Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus, MP, Charlesbourg-Haute-Saint-Charles, Standing Committee on Public Safety & National Security

Mr. Glen Motz, MP, Medicine Hat-Cardston-Warner, Standing Committee on Public Safety & National Security

Mr. Bob Zimmer, MP, Prince George-Peace River-Northern Rockies, Standing Committee on Indigenous & Northern Affairs

The Honourable John Horgan, Premier of British Columbia

The Honourable Mike Farnworth, MLA, Minister of Public Safety & Solicitor General of the Province of BC

Executive Committee & Board of Directors of the BC Wildlife Federation

Gary Mauser, Firearms Committee Chair, BC Wildlife Federation

Doug Bancroft, Recreational Sports Shooting Committee Chair, BC Wildlife Federation

Alberta Fish & Game Association

Manitoba Wildlife Federation

New Brunswick Wildlife Federation

Northwest Territories Wildlife Federation

Nova Scotia Federation of Anglers & Hunters

Nunavut Wildlife Management Board

Ontario Federation of Anglers & Hunters

Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation

Yukon Fish & Game Association

Canadian Coalition for Firearms Rights

National Firearms Association

Canadian Shooting Sports Association
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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 8:46 am 
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Edmonton<500 wrote:
leadslinger wrote:
Edmonton<500 wrote:
Your opinion, perhaps, Ken, but it lacks in anything substantial from a discussion point of view (e.g., how does your educational background compare to the average Canadian civil servant in the law enforcement sector?) As an expert in public relations, I can tell you no one in law enforcement other than assigned professionals address the public on behalf of his/her agency. I'll agree that the media loves to talk to people in the sector who will cast a vote to the liberal side, but I'm also prepared to say that, by far, those people in the sector speaking from a personal viewpoint, do not support enhanced gun control. I refer you to virtually any discussion on this forum (and its referenced outsources) regarding the personal opinion of any person in the law enforcement sector (many of which are personal because they are currently retired and cannot/do not speak for the branch from which they have experience).


Clearly you haven't had anyone come up to you and ask you a question just to try and get you in trouble. I was military, in downtown Halifax. You be surprised the amount of questions people try and ask, just to spin what you say. Getting coffee, etc. So I'm well aware of the PR rep, every organization has one. But still people speak and have their opinions, that may or may not represent the organization. But in this case, this retired police officer is dead wrong. Doesn't take much research to realize central storage is a bad idea, also removal of firing pin. Because face it, you cannot go a week, without someone looking for a bolt, their Grandfather stored else wheres.

Look at Bill Blair, he's never right and he was Police. So he knows what hes trying to do won't work. Thus empathizing me saying, Most vocal.


Not sure what that has to do with my point, but yes, many times. "You have the right to remain silent."


You said only a PR person speaks. But I'm saying clearly you haven't had someone come up to you in uniform, and try to get you to say something that could be spun out of context, Or overhear while speaking to others. Everybody has a opinion, and not always say silent. I find worst opinions are retired personal, for being out to lunch and false. Their opinion still can be used against the police. Because they run with it, even if the police force doesn't condone it.

I had a Navy guy tell me I don't need a AR15.. While hes posing with a C8 carbine. He was a older heavy set person. He was against them, but I was like if you are against them, why are you posing with one? Well Its for work. So this is your FB page, not your works. So you know how hypocritical you sounds? Telling me I shouldn't have one, why you look goofy holding one. Then the military me pointed out everything wrong. Backward sight, no pistol in the holster, your vest is too loose.


A friend said this.

Quote:
We can't win this fight. We will eventually lose all our guns. Why? We're all unreasonable pricks that don't have a clue. We have become like the movie "Idicoracy". The most vocal of us are also the most stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 8:51 am 
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RCMP have removed all mentions of grandfathering from their website.

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:04 am 
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This rather tells the story.


Attachments:
Criminal or Victim.jpg
Criminal or Victim.jpg [ 26.96 KiB | Viewed 198 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:21 am 
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Daryl thanks for sharing that letter. Very well written, seems to me anyway and great point that licensed firearm users have a much lower murder rate than the rest of the country, even with all the anti gunners lumped in 8)
If they unintentionally outlawed almost all 12 gauge and 10 gauge shotguns, now they're really going to look foolish.
I think many people out west here (and Canada wide I assume) have had a decent amount of respect for how the federal government and provincial governments worked together to try curb this Corona virus, but with these actions they've squandered what good will they had by this firearms ban and going ahead with upping the gas tax.
So much for working together and respecting the rights of fellow Canadians.


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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:30 am 
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wesb2007 wrote:
Daryl thanks for sharing that letter. Very well written, seems to me anyway and great point that licensed firearm users have a much lower murder rate than the rest of the country, even with all the anti gunners lumped in 8)
If they unintentionally outlawed almost all 12 gauge and 10 gauge shotguns, now they're really going to look foolish.
I think many people out west here (and Canada wide I assume) have had a decent amount of respect for how the federal government and provincial governments worked together to try curb this Corona virus, but with these actions they've squandered what good will they had by this firearms ban and going ahead with upping the gas tax.
So much for working together and respecting the rights of fellow Canadians.


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I have no respect for any government that violates our rights. Our charter rights have been revoked and most people have no issue with that.

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 Post subject: Re: This is bad
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:00 pm 
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Location: Klowntown BC
https://www.castanet.net/news/Letters/299059/Self-defense-is-a-human-right

this is a letter to editor on my local news web page..
interesting points, his vein is along the self-defence/legal concealed carry aspect.

this!... is what i found most interesting.

"...Self defense is a human right and just because some people do not trust themselves with a gun does not mean licensed gun owners are the problem. According to Stats Canada we only have less than 100,000 police officers across Canada, and estimated 4,500(?) fighting troops in the armed forces.

This means that the 2.3 million licensed firearm owners outnumber all government forces something like 22:1. So why not allow some of these highly vetted licensed firearm owners to conceal carry to deter and stop future acts of terrorism? ..
.."

i don't know where he got the 4,500 fighting(?) troop figure from??? but i found the active personnel numbers for 2020 at 67,492 active and 36,381 reserve...

allow me then to re-write:

....less than 100,000 police officers across Canada, and 101,173 troops in the armed forces.

This means that the 2,300,000 million licensed firearm owners outnumber all government forces (201,173) better than 11:1 :supz:

he: allow some of these licensed firearm owners to conceal carry
me: no wonder they want our guns.

it's almost like trudeau just pulled off step one of a coup,
on us.


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