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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:29 pm 
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I think it can reach the 100 yards no problem, but the settings cannot be down tune on the fly, you'll need to open up and probably re adjust the settings, that's why the fx and the daystate make sense to have that in just 1 gun, fx has the external regulator, beside the hammer and transfer port adjustment, while daystate redwolf you just dial it in and its there, other ones that I saw was JSAR raptor and the mini raptor, because they use an adjustable regulator by ninja so you can set it easier, but I don't think they have the adjustable transfer port, another gun that probably would work is Kral puncher jumbo, if you probably add the ninja adjustable regulator, this would be achiveable on the fly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:13 pm 
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pistolero wrote:
I think it can reach the 100 yards no problem, but the settings cannot be down tune on the fly, you'll need to open up and probably re adjust the settings, that's why the fx and the daystate make sense to have that in just 1 gun, fx has the external regulator, beside the hammer and transfer port adjustment, while daystate redwolf you just dial it in and its there, other ones that I saw was JSAR raptor and the mini raptor, because they use an adjustable regulator by ninja so you can set it easier, but I don't think they have the adjustable transfer port, another gun that probably would work is Kral puncher jumbo, if you probably add the ninja adjustable regulator, this would be achiveable on the fly.


THis is really helpful, Pistolero. I will start doing some detailed research on these.

Jim G


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:33 pm 
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Location: Caronport, Saskatchewan
Yep, I wrote Air Arms, but I was actually thinking Daystate along with FX when I was offering my 2 cents earlier 8)
Travis at Airgunsource.ca deals with warranty issues on the Daystate, FX and Air Arms guns. I've been selling a few fx guns as well and dealing with warranty issues. The only problem I've found so far that required taking the gun apart was the poppet in the dreamline valve. It does not like dry firing it seems as they easily start to leak. However, I believe the new ones are now changed again internally, as Travis mentioned a new poppet system, so hopefully the next batch won't have that problem.
Oh yes, and a Dreamline classic, I'm still trying to help a customer with as the port power adjuster seems to be getting stuck, so not sure what is happening there. Now I'm becoming a bad advertisement 8)
Regards,
Wes

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:05 am 
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wesb2007 wrote:
Yep, I wrote Air Arms, but I was actually thinking Daystate along with FX when I was offering my 2 cents earlier 8)
Travis at Airgunsource.ca deals with warranty issues on the Daystate, FX and Air Arms guns. I've been selling a few fx guns as well and dealing with warranty issues. The only problem I've found so far that required taking the gun apart was the poppet in the dreamline valve. It does not like dry firing it seems as they easily start to leak. However, I believe the new ones are now changed again internally, as Travis mentioned a new poppet system, so hopefully the next batch won't have that problem.
Oh yes, and a Dreamline classic, I'm still trying to help a customer with as the port power adjuster seems to be getting stuck, so not sure what is happening there. Now I'm becoming a bad advertisement 8)
Regards,
Wes

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk


I appreciate the heads-up on those 2 issues. Thank-you! It's all part of doing my due diligence on different rifles.

Jim G


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:24 am 
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Wow, I just watched a video on the Hard Air Magazine website, showing off the Daystate Red Wolf High power, and that rifle is pretty impressive in so many ways, including its 55 ft lb muzzle energy on the highest of its 3 power settings, and its accuracy. I think I'm in love. :)

The price is of course intimidating, especially for a retiree. I wonder how many used ones are out there in Canada?

Jim G


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:27 am 
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Posts: 488
Location: SW Ontario
Just a word of caution. It sounds like you've been bitten with the airgun bug and that's a good thing. However if you're expecting to consistantly shoot sub MOA at a 100 yards with pellets you will be bitterly disappointed!
I've been shooting paper at 100 yard for years and have competed in every major event at that distance and think I know what I'm talking about.
Pellets with their inherent low BC are very susceptible to wind drift unlike the bullets you've been shooting. Even with wind flags and knowing how to shoot outdoors at that range you will concider yourself lucky to shoot 1.5" groups and average 2"s.
In your case with your backround and expectations I would recommend an airgun designed to shoot slugs/bullets. FX has guns with barrel liners especially designed to shoot slugs.
Talk to Travis at Airgun Source, he'll set you up right.

Good luck,
Ed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:47 am 
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Posts: 2449
Location: Northeastern Ontario
JimGnitecki wrote:
Penage Guy wrote:
The Weihrauch HW 100 is a top quality PCP. It is German-made and has a good deal of adjustability. They are available at D&L Airguns.


I did find that model online and heard some good things about it, but do not see it mentioned much when talking about long range air rifle shooting. I'm not sure it has the power and repeatable accuracy for the 75 to 100 yard shooting. Does it?

Jim G


Jim, the accuracy requirements described in your first post are achievable only under ideal conditions, that is no wind and from a solid bench rest. Sub-MOA accuracy at 100 yards is often a tall order for .22LR, and is dependent not only on the rifle but also the ammo. No less is required of an air rifle. Among the most important factors in achieving sub-MOA accuracy especially at longer distances (for air rifles) is consistent MV (below 1000 fps), consistent pellets in size and weight (these can vary a great deal even in the same tin), and an absence of wind.

It's worth noting that MV's over 960 - 1000 fps are undesirable when it comes to accuracy. Transonic turbulence robs pellets of accuracy if they "go too fast". With pellets its a very real thing and must be avoided. And when it comes to power, faster pellets don't offer a significant advantage over those that are a little slower.

At 100 yards a difference in a crosswind speed of 1 mph between shots can result in considerable drift -- over 2 inches. This means that a barely detectable windspeed difference between shots can push a pellet two inches off target. And faster is not better.

It would seem intuitive that a faster pellet will have less wind drift than a slower pellet, but this is not necessarily the case.

To illustrate (all figures from Hawke Chairgun), at 100 yards with a 1 mph crosswind, an 18 grain pellet (heavier than average) at 1000 fps will have more wind drift (2.32") than the same pellet at 900 fps (2.29"). At the same time the same 18 grain pellet at 850 fps will drift the same amount as the pellet with a 1000 fps MV, that is 2.32". A slower 800 fps 18 grain pellet will drift 2.38".
Much faster pellets will drift even more. At 1100 fps the drift would be 2.42", while a very fast 1200 fps pellet would drift 2.54". Remember all these drifts are caused by a 1 mph crosswind. The difference is not great but it means that faster is not better when it comes to wind.

With regard to the effects of gravity, an 18 grain pellet with an MV of 1000 fps will drop 29.8" at 100 yards; at 900 fps the pellet will drop 34.5" while at 850 fps it will drop 37.9".

But the effect of wind is more significant than the effect of gravity. Unlike the wind, gravity remains constant. Wind changes, even slight ones, can have a significant effect on the point of impact down range. The long and the short of it is that pellets are very much subject to the whimsy of the elements. The wind is always less predictable than gravity. A slight wind change of 1 mph between shots, barely enough to notice, will deny 1 MOA results. The difference in MV of 850 fps or 1000 fps is irrelevant. And whether a pellet drops 30" at 100 yards or 38" matters much less than if there is any wind in the equation.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:23 am 
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Location: Southern Gulf Islands, Beautiful British Columbia, Canada
Well said Glenn.

When it comes to air rifles and pellets, an increase in velocity does not necessarily equal an improvement in accuracy. I’ve always been amazed at the accuracy and consistency of my FX rifles shooting 50 yards @ 500ish FPS - one can actually see the pellet arcing through the scope to it’s POA, hitting them mark time and time again.

My HW-100 is equally accurate, but not nearly as adjustable on-the-fly as the FX. Plus it is one heavy beast compared to the lightweight Dream/Streamline.

On the subject of reliability, there isn’t a rifle out there that has never experienced a failure of some kind, but a few isolated service issues do not equate to a general problem with reliability of a given brand or model.

Finally, if a pellet hit the bullseye at 100 yards time and time again, what would the challenge be in that?

Cheers!

Avianmanor

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*Air Arms S510 Extra*Artemis M11 MK II*CZ 200S*Benjamin Marauder*Brocock Concept*Cometa Orion*Daystate Huntsman*Daystate Revere*FX Dreamline*FX Streamline*Hatsan BT65*Kral Puncher*QB78D*Weihrauch HW100S*Artemis PP700S*Diana Chaser*Snowpeak CP1-M*FX Radar*


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:51 am 
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Posts: 40
EdLena: I have basically written off slugs because they seem to cost so much per slug. This goes back to my opening statement that while I am willing to spend what's needed up front to get good accuracy, I want the per-shot cost to be low so that I can practice, practice, practice even on a retirement budget! $.03 to $.04 per pellet sounds good to me. Slug prices do not.

I DO realize that pellet velocity is critical - that's why I want an adjustable rifle versus one that is non-adjustable. And I do recognize that wind is a huge factor for pellet shooting - adjusting and managing for that is part of the challenge. I just need to know however that under calm conditions, with "benchrest" setup detail, and with good shooter skillsets, the rifle CAN produce <MOA 5-shot groups, so that I am not wasting my time and efforts chasing something that the rifle cannot do,

Jim G


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:15 am 
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Posts: 40
Penage Guy wrote:
JimGnitecki wrote:
Penage Guy wrote:
The Weihrauch HW 100 is a top quality PCP. It is German-made and has a good deal of adjustability. They are available at D&L Airguns.


I did find that model online and heard some good things about it, but do not see it mentioned much when talking about long range air rifle shooting. I'm not sure it has the power and repeatable accuracy for the 75 to 100 yard shooting. Does it?

Jim G


Jim, the accuracy requirements described in your first post are achievable only under ideal conditions, that is no wind and from a solid bench rest. Sub-MOA accuracy at 100 yards is often a tall order for .22LR, and is dependent not only on the rifle but also the ammo. No less is required of an air rifle. Among the most important factors in achieving sub-MOA accuracy especially at longer distances (for air rifles) is consistent MV (below 1000 fps), consistent pellets in size and weight (these can vary a great deal even in the same tin), and an absence of wind.

It's worth noting that MV's over 960 - 1000 fps are undesirable when it comes to accuracy. Transonic turbulence robs pellets of accuracy if they "go too fast". With pellets its a very real thing and must be avoided. And when it comes to power, faster pellets don't offer a significant advantage over those that are a little slower.

At 100 yards a difference in a crosswind speed of 1 mph between shots can result in considerable drift -- over 2 inches. This means that a barely detectable windspeed difference between shots can push a pellet two inches off target. And faster is not better.

It would seem intuitive that a faster pellet will have less wind drift than a slower pellet, but this is not necessarily the case.

To illustrate (all figures from Hawke Chairgun), at 100 yards with a 1 mph crosswind, an 18 grain pellet (heavier than average) at 1000 fps will have more wind drift (2.32") than the same pellet at 900 fps (2.29"). At the same time the same 18 grain pellet at 850 fps will drift the same amount as the pellet with a 1000 fps MV, that is 2.32". A slower 800 fps 18 grain pellet will drift 2.38".
Much faster pellets will drift even more. At 1100 fps the drift would be 2.42", while a very fast 1200 fps pellet would drift 2.54". Remember all these drifts are caused by a 1 mph crosswind. The difference is not great but it means that faster is not better when it comes to wind.

With regard to the effects of gravity, an 18 grain pellet with an MV of 1000 fps will drop 29.8" at 100 yards; at 900 fps the pellet will drop 34.5" while at 850 fps it will drop 37.9".

But the effect of wind is more significant than the effect of gravity. Unlike the wind, gravity remains constant. Wind changes, even slight ones, can have a significant effect on the point of impact down range. The long and the short of it is that pellets are very much subject to the whimsy of the elements. The wind is always less predictable than gravity. A slight wind change of 1 mph between shots, barely enough to notice, will deny 1 MOA results. The difference in MV of 850 fps or 1000 fps is irrelevant. And whether a pellet drops 30" at 100 yards or 38" matters much less than if there is any wind in the equation.


Thank-you for this excellent reply! I understand and agree with all you have said. Your specific Hawke Chairgun example in fact illustrates well how a serious air rifle shooter needs to be looking for the correct "node" for the current conditions, and needs to have a rifle CAPABLE of being adjusted sufficiently to FIND that node. I need to figure out which rifle available in the marketplace will support that kind of effort.

About 30 years ago, I did a test for the U.S. Olympic air psitol/rifle shooting team. This was before pre-sorted pellets were available from any pellet manufacturer. I had suggested to the team that with the then-current variances in pellet weight, it was physically impossible to relaibly shoot a group with all x's, at Olympic muzzle velocities. I proved it as well by gaining access, through a Honeywell laboratory manager friend, to a Honeywell precision scale normally used for forensic materials failure projects. That scale could measure weights with precision far better accuracy than anything available at the time to consumer shooters. I plugged the data from the weighing test into the Newton's law equation D = Vi x T + 1/2 x A x T squared, and provied decisively that consistent x groups were physically impossible with the currently available pellets.

For a while, it looked like the team was going to give me a contract to produce a large number of pre-sorted pellets for them, but then they got someone else to do it for them for less money!

Nowadays, pellet weight consistency is likely far better than it was 3 decades ago, but I plan to do some weighing with the same digital scale I use for firearm ammo reloading, to find out if I still need to weight and pre-sort. I suspect that for the type of shooting I want to do, the answer is likely yes!

Having to do that, along with developing much better wind estimation skills, doesn't bother me. I look forward to the challenge. But I need to know I am not wasting my time because I picked a rifle that cannot support the degree of precision and control that I am trying to achieve. That's why I am asking the questions in this thread. :)

Jim G


Last edited by JimGnitecki on Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:35 am 
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Pellet shooting is a real challenge for multiple reasons, beyond the challenges already poresent in firearm shooting!

One reason is that pellets were originally mostly designed strictly for low velocity "practice" shooting or for safer pest control, not for long distance precision shooting, and especially not under varying wind conditions!

Another reason is that for at least some combinations of rifle, pellet weight, distance to target, desired terminal ballistics, and current wind conditions, the normal "accuracy node" might be right in the transsonic velocity range where the pellet flight becomes rather unstable! So, avoiding that transsonic range of velocity becomes important, adding immensely to the challenge. I suspect this is why slugs work so much better than pellets for higher velocity airgun shooting, as the slugs' higher weight, superior center of gravity control, and lower reactions to muzzle and in-flight disturbances, all help to reduce the adverse effects of muzzle and in-flight disturbances, or even eliminate some of them outright. (The advantages of a waisted pellet design become disadvantageous once you get to higher velocities and/or encounter more disturbances).

All these extra challenges are fascinating to me, rather than discouraging. :)

Jim G


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:47 pm 
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Posts: 488
Location: SW Ontario
JimGnitecki wrote:
All these extra challenges are fascinating to me, rather than discouraging. :)

Jim G

You're airgun ready with that attitude.
I would still recommend FX as they are very adjustable (fun), still more accurate at 100 yards than Daystate (see EBR, RMAC and PAC results)
With a few dollars more you can get an interchangeable barrel liner to shoot slugs. Slugs are becoming more popular and so less expensive as more pellet producers come on line.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:17 pm 
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Location: Alberta
Jim is a fx120i scale weighing to 2 hundredths of a grain accurate enough to weigh pellets?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:11 pm 
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Jefferson wrote:
Jim is a fx120i scale weighing to 2 hundredths of a grain accurate enough to weigh pellets?


To answer your question, let's take a look at the math, the pellet weight ranges, and also weighing environment:

0.02 grain maximum error MIGHT mean a total possible error range of 0.02 grains (i.e. + or - .01 grain) OR it might mean + or - 0.02 grain. It depends on how non-deceptive the manufacturer is with its specifications.

Let's assume the worst case of + or - 0.02 grains as the error range. This means a potential .02 + .02 = .04 grain total error range.

Now let's consider the range of possible pellet weights. That can range from about 5 grains in 177 caliber to at least 30 grains or more for large caliber pellets. 0.177 caliber is "the worst case", since the pellets are the lightest, so the scale's potential error range is a higher percentage of the pellet's weight. A higher percent error in pellet weight means a higher percent of variation in both pellet trajectory and wind resistance. (Yes, wind resistance is definitely affected by pellet weight).

So, for a 177 caliber pellet with "nominal" weight of 5 grains, the maximum potential 0.04 grain error is 0.04/5 grains = .008 of the pellet weight, or 0.8% of the pellet weight. Is this enough to change trajectory? Technically, yes, because while objects of different weights but equal air drag all fall at the same rate due to gravity, a weight change also means a change in muzzle velocity and flight time. The heavier pellet will be traveling slower and therefore spend more time in flight, and therefor give Gravity more time to accelerate it downward. But, will that tiny change in velocity be ENOUGH to SEE on a target?

Let's take a 50 yard example, which is "worst case" for many shooters (except fanatics like me).

Newton's laws say that vertical drop = ViT + 1/2aTT.

A 0.8% weight variance will likely translate to about a 0.8% muzzle velocity variance. Because of the above equation, the flight time effect of that 0.8% velocity variance will be magnified due to the "T-squared" in the 2nd half of the equation.

Let's say the pellet muzzle velocity of the fastest pellet (i.e. lightest pellet within the error range) is say 900 fps. To go 50 yards = 150 feet, that pellet will need 150/900 = 0.167 second.

The HEAVIEST pellet can be up to 0.8 % heavier and so 0.8% slower. So, its MV will be = 900*0.8/100 = 7.2 fps slower, or 892.8 fps. So, its flight time will be 150/892.8 = 0.168 second.

So, the difference in flight time 0.168-0.167 = 0.001 second, which is one thosuandth of a second.

Now technically, the difference ion flight time applies to both halves of that equation, but the second half is the one wioth the big impact because (a) it uses time SQUARED, and (b) the first half of the equation only applies to the VERTICAL component of the velocity which is tiny comapred to the horizontal component (even for an air riflewith a low MV).

Ignoring that vertical component, the flight drops for the lightest and heaviest pellets respectively calculate out to 0.449 foot and 0.454 feet. That's a difference of 0.005 foot = 0.06 inch or about 1/16 inch.

Is that small number large enough to be signfiicant? That depends. For shooting pests or knockdown Field Target targets, no it's not significant. For benchrest type compititon shooting, where the total 5-shot group size might be only half an inch, yes it is significant because it makes the group potentially 12.5% larger.

Now this assumes that the .02 grain scale error spec means + or - .02grain which is the worst case assumption, and it also assumes a 5 grain pellet that no one is likely to try to shoot at 50 yards.

At 50 yards, you are far more likely wanting to shoot a 15 to 30 grain pellet, which makes the potential flight variance due to pellet scale weight error pretty insignificant.

But wait, there's more . . . there is another important consideration.

Most very accurate scales are super sensitive in order to BE (Truly) super accurate. That means that the slightest air movement near them can and will affect the displayed weight. It also means that the lightest movement of the table they are sitting on, due to even just YOUR stepping on the floor near it, will affect its readings.

The precision scale I used at Honeywell's defence laboratory was FULLY ENCLOSED by a clear plastic box with a door in it. The box protected the scale from air movements, and the door allowed access to put in and then later remove the item being weighed. The scale was also on a CONCRETE table platform to ENSURE no vibration. The weighing process was:

- Turn the power on the scale "on" at least several minuted before use, to allow the electornics to thermally stabilize

- Check that the scale is properly "zeroed" before doing ANY weighing, by using provided known-to-be dead-accurate weights

- Open the door and insert the item to be weighed, using tweezers, being craeful to move slowly and not put excess pressure onto the weighing platform

- Close the door

- Wait several seconds for the air inside the clear box (which was moved by your opening the door, placing the item, and closing the door) to stop moving

- Note the stabilized weight reading and the number of decimal places displayed

Noting all of the above, how good is YOUR weighing environment?

Which leads back to more questions:
Just how much precision does YOUR shooting type require?
Are your skill sets good enough, or are you at least trying to make them good enough, to merit the rather extreme cost, complexity, and time associated with getting truly precise results?

Jim G


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:48 pm 
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Having read up a bit about slugs, and learning about the very significant coefficients of drag they offer and the resulting VERY improved performance at longer ranges, I am warming up to the idea of a rfile that can shoot EITHER pellets or slugs.

But, I now understand that shooting slugs requires a high energy rifle and a faster twist rate than pellets.

1. I THINK the faster twist rate should not adversely affect pellet shooting, since, at least with firearms, a faster than needed twist rate does no harm. Is it the same with air rifles or not?

2. Which rifle models have the energy, energy adjustments (for tuning), and barrels that will support shooting .22 caliber air rifle slugs? (ideally without changing barrels to go between slugs and pellets)

Jim G


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