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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:58 pm 
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Why do people, if someone says target pistol. Automatically assume the person wants a full blown 10m gun? If you read the guns the OP have, which are replicas, I doubt he got 10m competitions on his mind. Probably wants something a bit more accurate than I assume most are BB guns.

Target shooting can be plinking and paper punching. Not always 10m ISSF.

A 1740 would be my choice. Since he would have a bunch of CO2 kicking around. Diana Bandit or Chaser, I didn't find the grip that comfy. Maybe a Ted William's version of a Crosman 150. Which I bought one for 100$

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:36 pm 
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if you're still looking at the Bandit, it's cheaper here and the dealer is top notch. Raman also has it in .177

https://www.canadashootingsupply.ca/diana-bandit-pcp-air-pistol-0-22.html


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:22 am 
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In response to what you are asking...In the Target specific forum..and namely a Decent “Target” pistol.
You would require a match grade trigger, as anything below that std can produce difficulties when going for a best score. You would require an adjustable grip that allows the dropped hand shooting style..and match grade sights.
With that in mind a cheapo option would be the Air Venturi V10 (Gamo Compact) if you are happy with low to medium build quality..
A higher quality option would be the FAS6004

If general plinking at general targets, none of the requirements above would be required and any of the aforementioned pistols would do.
An HW75 being the best of the rest..IMO

Co2 stuff.....just a darn nuisance IMO..
Depends on stability of your air temperature but in a seasonal climate, their velocity can vary from day to day. Reliance on Co2 bulbs and their power curve drop off a pain in the buttock after the novelty wears off.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:07 pm 
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Might be worth taking a look at the Crosman 2300T. It's a CO2, and is $236.

Here are the specs from the D&L website:

"This Air Pistol is designed specifically for shooting clubs and organizations that teach pistol shooting. This affordable competition style pistol is perfect for new and advanced shooters."

- Includes a Lothar Walther 10.1 inch Barrel and 10 lands and groves
- Single-stage trigger with adjustable trigger pull (1-4 pounds) and an over-travel adjustment screw.
- Powers over 40 shots at a consistent velocity from one Crosman Powerlet.
- Rear LPA Sight micrometric adjustments to both windage and elevation with hardened click screws.

https://dlairgun.com/collections/crosma ... 5479904316

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FX Streamline .22, Benjamin Discovery .22, Weihrauch HW30 .177, Webley Alecto .22, Weihrauch HW40, Beretta PX4, Crosman 22XX .22, Colt Peacemaker BB, Beeman P17, Gamo 45


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:45 pm 
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The Diana Airbug will be out soon as well, a slimmed down co2 version of the Bandit. I found the Cp1-M was very accurate, it's older brother, and the Airbug will have a two stage adjustable trigger, like the Diana Chaser.
Regards
Wes

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:06 am 
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clarky wrote:

Co2 stuff.....just a darn nuisance IMO..
Depends on stability of your air temperature but in a seasonal climate, their velocity can vary from day to day. Reliance on Co2 bulbs and their power curve drop off a pain in the buttock after the novelty wears off.


Not sure about "replica" CO2 pistols, but my experience with FWB C25 (borrowed from a friend) and my TAU7... the CO2 inconvenient is way over rated.
- Unless you going shooting outdoor in -25c temperature and/or storing your pistol on the dash of your car in the summer sun... I've found the so-call temperature sensitive issues, to be non-issues. I was doing bulk-fill from a recycled 20lb fire extinguisher. It was about as convenient as you could get.

In a regular temp room, you couldn't reload/shoot a single-shot pistol fast enough to freeze the expansion chamber to affect velocity/accuracy.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:24 pm 
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If doing bulk fill i might be inclined to agree but if going that way (not self contained) i would still prefer the stability of PCP over gas.
In regard of bulbs, completely different story.
I have shot in warm target lanes which have been heated during winter months but had to perform major sight adjustments as the boilers shut off about 7pm and the place really cold by 9..
Also predicting the power curve of bulbs can be a real annoyance.
You really need to know where you are in your bulb range before starting your session, while bulb changes can have disastrous consequences for your first few shots...been there done it and not for me.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:07 pm 
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clarky wrote:
If doing bulk fill i might be inclined to agree but if going that way (not self contained) i would still prefer the stability of PCP over gas.
In regard of bulbs, completely different story.
I have shot in warm target lanes which have been heated during winter months but had to perform major sight adjustments as the boilers shut off about 7pm and the place really cold by 9..
Also predicting the power curve of bulbs can be a real annoyance.
You really need to know where you are in your bulb range before starting your session, while bulb changes can have disastrous consequences for your first few shots...been there done it and not for me.


Most of the problems with CO2 inconsistency comes from the pistol's design. A pressurized vertical reservoir with a light valve return spring and moderate hammer spring can be very consistent. Many years ago I tested a BRNO TAU-7 for temperature sensitivity and also velocity variations with rapid fire shooting. The TAU did great IMO. I used bulk fill but did not top up after the fill. Unfortunately most current production CO2 pistols use horizontal tubes that seal on the powerlet neck. This arrangement seems to give a lot less shots per bulb and lower consistency. A good design is well known but manufacturer's don't seem to favour it.

Velocity Consistency Tests

Velocity Consistency - 30 seconds between shots (68F temp)
JSB Match 7.3gr = 484, 486, 487, 486, 487, 485, 490, 487, 491, 492, 491, 493, 492, 495, 494, 495, 495, 498, 494, 495.
RWS R-10 7.7gr = 422, 424, 422, 422, 424, 426, 423, 426, 425, 426
RWS Meister 7.7gr = 434, 423, 430, 430, 430, 428, 432, 428, 431, 433, 433, 429.

Velocity readings thoughout a 65 shot series
Shots #1 - 5 = 487, 485, 487, 490, 493
Shots #31 - 35 = 490, 494, 495, 491, 495
Shots #61 - 65 = 492, 497, 491, 490, 490

All velocity readings over the 65 shot series fell between 485 fps and 495 fps with the 7.3 grain JSB Match pellet. After 71 shots on this same bulk fill the muzzle report was suddenly much lower and velocity readings dropped off rapidly. It was very easy to tell when the liquid CO2 was gone and the pistol needed another filling. The lower shot noise coincides exactly with the drop in velocity.

Rapid Fire Shooting Test

This was a challenging test because of the time factor involved. The TAU-7 was clamped into my Black and Decker Workmate and the chronograph was placed 20" in front of the pistol. A stopwatch and note pad were placed on the Workmate, beside the pistol. A set of 15 pellets were lined up for fast acquisition. I started the clock and made the shots within specific intervals. There was no reason to focus on the clamped pistol so I loaded, shot, checked velocity, quickly recorded, and repeated…15 times. This simple system should ensure no pistol movement and consistent readings.

The 7.3 grain JSB Match pellet and bulk CO2 were used for the complete test. This pellet usually tests at 485-495 fps when shot at a target shooting pace in the same 69F temperature.

Velocity readings with 14-22 second intervals
500,492,494,497,501,505,498,499,495,502,502,496,510,501,501

High = 505 fps
Low = 492 fps
Ave = 500 fps

5 minute rest break.

Velocity readings with 10-15 second intervals
502,500,503,508,504,503,501,502,503,502,502,504,502,501,500

High = 508 fps
Low = 500 fps
Ave = 502 fps

5 minute rest break.

Velocity readings with 10-15 second intervals (repeat test)
506,505,501,501,504,504,502,499,500,500,503,501,498,501,501

High = 506 fps
Low = 498 fps
Ave = 502 fps

The temperature of the TAU CO2 reservoir was getting very cold by the end of this test but velocity didn't seem to be effected. With a balanced valve there is compensation for pressure drops. One fresh bulk fill was used for all the above shooting. There were no “top ups” during the testing. A good bulk fill in the TAU-7 is about 12 grams.

Temperature Sensitivity Test

The same equipment set-up was used for this test as was used for the Rapid Shooting Test. The pistol was bulk filled at the beginning of the test and left clamped in the Workmate until the testing was over.

During the winter months it is very easy to change the temperature in my two floor house. The gas furnace will heat the entire house through a duct system but when only the gas fireplace is used on the main floor the basement is deprived of heat. This was how I dropped the temperature in my shooting area from 70F to 55F without much effort. A thermometer indicated the exact temperature at the time of each test.

Two sets of 15 shots each were recorded using 7.3gr JSB Match pellets.

Velocity readings at 70F temperature
502, 500, 503, 508, 504, 503, 501, 502, 503, 502, 502, 504, 502, 501, 500
Ave = 502 fps

506, 505, 501, 501, 504, 504, 502, 499, 500, 500, 503, 501, 498, 501, 501
Ave = 502 fps

Velocity readings at 55F temperature
498, 502, 505, 505, 498, 503, 504, 508, 501, 498
Ave = 502 fps

The 55F temperature was quite cold. I needed a sweatshirt to be somewhat comfortable in the basement but the pistol’s metal was still cold to touch.

During the summer months I checked the TAU-7 for temperature sensitivity at the higher end. Velocities seemed to increase by 6-8% when going from 70F to 80F temperatures.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:27 pm 
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IMO there is a need for a well designed target CO2 pistol that can be sold at a moderate price. The Cr2300T is in this category but it suffers from the horizontal tube that seals on the powerlet neck. As a result the pistol only gives an advertised 40 shots at 420fps. In comparison a TAU-7 can give 85-100 shots at 480-485fps and be less sensitive to temperature and rapid shooting. Barrel lengths are the same.

Other vertical reservoir pistols to watch for include:
Crosman Mk1 & Mk2
S&W 78G & 79G
Daisy 780 & 790
BRNO TAU-7
Aeron BRNO Model 4 Chameleon
Aeron BRNO Model 5
Lovena Lov 21


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:23 am 
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Todd, I agree with all your findings here and applaud your big effort with very in depth testing you do on many gun types.
However, Co2 simply disappeared from the formal match scene never to be seen again.
I agree, for your basement shooting, or informal targets its fine but every competitive match shooter i have known, dropped Gas as soon as PCP stuff came along because it is all about the smallest errors coming from shot count.

Putting 5 or so shots through the gun to get into the settled state (from first fill) before settling into a match and then not wanting to worry about re-fill until the session completed. Then worrying about what the temp of the lane was going to be when turning up....You just do not see them anymore.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:44 am 
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Hi Clarky. It looks like we fully agree on CO2. It's an outdated propellant for a formal Olympic grade target pistol, just like spring power and SSP. PCP power rules the lanes. With that said, if the original poster wants something just for informal 10m target fun in a basement then a CO2 Oly style 10m pistol will work, even though it's not the most consistent. Sometimes they can be found for a good deal. The TAU-7 can sometimes be found for cheap and they function well for informal fun. I guess it all depends on how serious the OP is at competition. The OP is also asking whether to go with .22 or .177 so they might not be serious about Oly style target shooting. A pellet revolver is working for them right now.

For basement target fun, even the P17 shoots fine. Back around 1999-2000, I shot my unaltered HW40 for informal 10m postal matches and managed to get 350-360 on a 40-shot match. A Gamo Compact would have been just as good a choice. I upgraded to the TAU-7 and picked up a few more points on the 40-shot postal matches. I wasn't serious enough to buy a modern PCP pistol with SCUBA tank and fittings.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:39 am 
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TCooper wrote:
Hi Clarky. It looks like we fully agree on CO2. It's an outdated propellant for a formal Olympic grade target pistol, just like spring power and SSP. PCP power rules the lanes. With that said, if the original poster wants something just for informal 10m target fun in a basement then a CO2 Oly style 10m pistol will work, even though it's not the most consistent. Sometimes they can be found for a good deal. The TAU-7 can sometimes be found for cheap and they function well for informal fun. I guess it all depends on how serious the OP is at competition. The OP is also asking whether to go with .22 or .177 so they might not be serious about Oly style target shooting. A pellet revolver is working for them right now.

For basement target fun, even the P17 shoots fine. Back around 1999-2000, I shot my unaltered HW40 for informal 10m postal matches and managed to get 350-360 on a 40-shot match. A Gamo Compact would have been just as good a choice. I upgraded to the TAU-7 and picked up a few more points on the 40-shot postal matches. I wasn't serious enough to buy a modern PCP pistol with SCUBA tank and fittings.


That is basically what I said. Target shouldn't just be you need a Olympic gun, or want to shoot 10M shooting. Target can be a lot of things. I find there is alot of that in shooting. You need this in order to be good. When the OP said he wanted something more accurate than what he has, and has BB guns I knew he probably wasn't interested in purely 10m. I was told I wouldn't be good because I didn't have a STI Edge when I shot IPSC. The Glock I used got me some plaques and medals. Or I need a 3# trigger to shoot PPC well. Took home 3rd Place Marksman with a nearly 5# trigger, on my 2nd ever match.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:37 pm 
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I did noticed when shooting My Co2 150 22 cal when it was much cooler that my SD/Spread was lower.

Crosman 150 - Ted Williams, 22 cal 13.73 Pellets, same Co2 batch, Same chrony, same light source, same high power setting.

In April basement being only +10C

Shot count: 35
Low: 339
Hi: 382
Avg: 364
STD Dev: 12.5
Spread: 43.0

Same gun, same batch of Co2, Same pellets.

Today at+22.6 degrees.

Shot count: 34
Low: 325
Hi: 424
Avg: 396
STD Dev: 24.3
Spread: 99.0

It dropped hard at the 30th shot, From 372, to 360, 353, 336, 325

I never tried a shot string on the low setting.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:04 pm 
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leadslinger wrote:
I did noticed when shooting My Co2 150 22 cal when it was much cooler that my SD/Spread was lower.

Crosman 150 - Ted Williams, 22 cal 13.73 Pellets, same Co2 batch, Same chrony, same light source, same high power setting.

In April basement being only +10C

Shot count: 35
Low: 339
Hi: 382
Avg: 364
STD Dev: 12.5
Spread: 43.0

Same gun, same batch of Co2, Same pellets.

Today at+22.6 degrees.

Shot count: 34
Low: 325
Hi: 424
Avg: 396
STD Dev: 24.3
Spread: 99.0

It dropped hard at the 30th shot, From 372, to 360, 353, 336, 325

I never tried a shot string on the low setting.


The Cr150-TW Edition is a slick air pistol! What are the numbers like if you cut off at 29 shots (at 22 degrees)? It's looking like you run out of fluid CO2 at that point. I'm curious about the low number for shot 28 and 29.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:11 am 
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To be honest guys, I hate PCP with a vengeance, much preferring self contained SSP.
Annoying paraphernalia and power curves right when you do not want it.
I had managed to match a good number of PCP scores when using a 103 and have done so with the 6004 since modifying one, prefering it's more compact handling once I had got it into the required 400 fps territory.

I may have misjudged the Target specific sub heading of this thread as to meaning 5 and 10m target shooting...and advising based on that...my bad....but i will always hang onto the view that a near match trigger is essential. At least when shooting air pistols...and after having used one, you will never look back.


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