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 Post subject: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:08 pm
Posts: 28
Hey guys I haven’t been on here for quite some time and have forgotten most of what I used to know :D

I’m considering the kral mega marine in 495 likely .22 I’d love to go .25 for later uses but I assume at 495 the .25’s just fall out of the barrel and hit the ground

Does anyone have any experience with this particular rifle at the lower velocity that they could share with me

Initially I was going to go with the Artemis fully upgraded regulated Diana stormrider but Lack of stock and lack of patience is an issue for me

Also in regards to re-tuning these de-tuned versions is it anything difficult, without to much detail I can’t own pal guns for a little while and would like something I can get back to full power later

Really missing putting holes in paper


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:17 pm
Posts: 2421
Location: Kingston, ON
00nothing wrote:
Hey guys I haven’t been on here for quite some time


Well, welcome back!

00nothing wrote:
but I assume at 495 the .25’s just fall out of the barrel and hit the ground

Does anyone have any experience with this particular rifle at the lower velocity that they could share with me

Now now...that's silly. A .25 pellet at 495 fps will hit the ground at the same point and time as any other calibre!
But it will make a louder plink and/or put a bigger hole on your paper than any smaller calibre.
495 is 495 in any calibre.
HIH.

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HW97K .22
Hatsan AT44-10W .22
Cometa Fusion Premiere Star .22 /.177


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:08 pm
Posts: 28
Quote:
Now now...that's silly. A .25 pellet at 495 fps will hit the ground at the same point and time as any other calibre!
But it will make a louder plink and/or put a bigger hole on your paper than any smaller calibre.
495 is 495 in any calibre.
HIH


I thought .25 cal guns were shooting much lower than that in order to stay under 5.7 joules ? I’ve always wanted a .25 airgun but never pulled the trigger one one so to speak lol


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3892
Location: Edmonton
00nothing wrote:
Quote:
Now now...that's silly. A .25 pellet at 495 fps will hit the ground at the same point and time as any other calibre!
But it will make a louder plink and/or put a bigger hole on your paper than any smaller calibre.
495 is 495 in any calibre.
HIH


I thought .25 cal guns were shooting much lower than that in order to stay under 5.7 joules ? I’ve always wanted a .25 airgun but never pulled the trigger one one so to speak lol


Ya gotta watch ol' Dukemeister. He's known for catching you on the not-too-obvious (or is it? :lol: )
You stated the .25 cal pellet was travelling "at 495," so it would be travelling at the same velocity as a .177 cal at 495 fps. :mrgreen: However, you're right in theory: If you have a rifle shooting a.177 cal pellet at 495, and you then changed only the calibre of that same rifle, a .25 cal. pellet out of that rifle would have much less velocity (NOT 495 fps). :wink:

For more practical information on non-pal .25 cal. airguns, check out canadashootingsupply.ca or archery and airgun fun.ca (Raman or Wes, respectively). They're both members of this forum (check the Dealer's Section), and while I'm not positive about CCS, I do know for sure AAF has offered .25 cal airguns that are non-pal rated (shooting close to 495 fps).

Cheers,


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:12 pm 
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Posts: 772
Location: Dowling ,ontario
I use an sub 500 fps pistol to hunt small game out to 20 yards . Waaaayyyy more effective than a .177 at the same velocity. I’d rather be hit with a tennis ball at 500 fps than a cinder block at 500 fps. Remember that both the criteria for PAL rated must be met , over the 500 fps and over 5.7 joules. That’s how the plastic ball shooters ( airsoft ) get away with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:08 pm
Posts: 28
Hobbyman2007 wrote:
I use an sub 500 fps pistol to hunt small game out to 20 yards . Waaaayyyy more effective than a .177 at the same velocity. I’d rather be hit with a tennis ball at 500 fps than a cinder block at 500 fps. Remember that both the criteria for PAL rated must be met , over the 500 fps and over 5.7 joules. That’s how the plastic ball shooters ( airsoft ) get away with it.


I know I could easily look this up in legislation but I like where this is going and could be a very informative posts for others in the future.

Semantics seems to be the best weapon in legal documents is it AND or is it OR my understanding was that only one condition needed to be met to declare it a firearm not both?


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:45 am
Posts: 60
RCMP says that air gun needs to exceed both muzzle energy and muzzle velocity, but Criminal code definition contains "and/or" and "or" doesn't seem to mean to include both. So it looks to me like RCMP might allow importing and sale air guns over 500 fps with energy under 5.7 joules without PAL but judge might find you in violation of law because of the "OR" in criminal code. Go fugure.

From RCMP web site (same page - https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/ ... s-firearms):


Air guns that are firearms for purposes of both the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code
These are air guns with both a high muzzle velocity (greater than 152.4 metres or 500 feet per second) and a high muzzle energy (greater than 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot-pounds). Air guns need to exceed both thresholds to be classified as firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act.
......
Air guns that meet the Criminal Code definition of a firearm, but are deemed not to be firearms for certain purposes of the Firearms Act and Criminal Code
These are air guns with a maximum muzzle velocity of 152.4 metres or 500 feet per second and/or a maximum muzzle energy of 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot-pounds. Such air guns are exempt from licensing, registration, and other requirements under the Firearms Act, and from penalties set out in the Criminal Code for possessing a firearm without a valid licence or registration certificate.

However, they are considered to be firearms under the Criminal Code if they are used to commit a crime. Anyone who uses such an air gun to commit a crime faces the same penalties as someone who uses a regular firearm.

The simple possession, acquisition and use of these air guns for lawful purposes are regulated more by provincial and municipal laws and by-laws than by federal law. For example, some provinces may have set a minimum age for acquiring such an air gun. For more information, please contact your local or provincial authorities.

These air guns are exempt from the specific safe storage, transportation and handling requirements set out in the regulations supporting the Firearms Act. However, the Criminal Code requires that you take reasonable precautions to use, carry, handle, store, transport and ship them in a safe and secure manner.


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 7073
Location: P.G. B.C.
Because of this quote, " Air guns need to exceed both thresholds to be classified as firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act." a judge can not and will not find you guilty of an offense for having a gun that discharges a projectile under 500fps but over 4.2fpe, or one that shoots over 500fps but under 4.2fpe.

If this was the case, all .22, .25 and .30 sub 500fps springer rifles would be classified as firearms, along with most .22 and all .25 PCP or springer handguns would be classified as restricted firearms.

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Daryl


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3892
Location: Edmonton
Congratulations! You're both right... or wrong as the case may be. Can't remember how many times I've pointed out this "minor" discrepancy between the regulations and the criminal code, and the fact that it was only a few years ago that the RCMP actually changed the regs to read as Daryl quoted. This raises three points.

1. Since the RCMP was granted the power to write regulations, our gun "laws" have been FUBAR.

2. No only does the RCMP have regulation control, but they also have the power of those regulations to push virtually any regulatory case into the realm of criminal law (by trumping up criminal charges).

3. The RCMP has gone far beyond the realm of writing regulations to define legislation and into the realm of creating regulations that extend the boundaries of any legislation passed by our elected representatives (which in itself is somehow an oxymoron) (e.g., classifying firearms by their appearance as opposed to any real issues for which the legislation was written in the first place).

Conclusion: Stay legal (and you'll only know for sure when you're told you're not) and stay low. As long as you have anything resembling a firearm in your hands, you can be charged.

Oh, there's one other conclusion: When you're next given the right to vote (coming fairly soon I suspect), consider voting on the grounds of just one issue: Most Canadians do, and the issues are often far less significant that our right to own and legitimately use firearms.


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:41 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:45 am
Posts: 60
Yes, that was my point - most of gun laws are not clear and even if you have slingshot you can be charged under firearms laws and regulations under correct circumstances. In most cases court tends to find you not guilty if you follow all the rules by the book and don't have criminal intentions. But it costs a lot of money to prove anything in court.


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:08 pm
Posts: 28
This turned into a great post informatively wish I could change the post title to reflect the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Kral non pal
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:52 pm
Posts: 7375
Location: Vancouver Island BC
00nothing wrote:
This turned into a great post informatively wish I could change the post title to reflect the discussion.


Ask a mod they can change your title as for this post this has been gone over a hundred time on this forum ever new group of members i see it could put as a sticky but it would not be looked at lol.......


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