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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:10 am 
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If c-21 goes live. If your guns don't look like starwars/star trek/men in black guns.. i'd said it is best to store them all until we know for certain.

They haven't defined (near precision) it is way too vague for now.. from a gun owner point of view it isn't the same as from general public point of view.

My wife can't even tell the difference between a colt and a beretta.. they all look like real guns to her.

The dpms sbr doesn't exactly/perfectly resemble to an ar-15 either.. but im pretty sure the dpms will be a prohibited device under c-21.

Daisy Red ryder, filled with bb sounds like a maraca, and will be prohibited under c-21...name me a lever action real rifle that sound like a maraca..


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:13 am 
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Pretty sure when they say resemble.... they are going to quickly say something like at 50 feet by a peace officer can be mistaken so therefore resembles.. and that will be it.
None of those pistols will be legal.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:06 am 
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Replica Airguns assertion that the Red Ryder would be prohibited is quite a stretch. It is not a replica of a firearm, and it is not detuned for Canada.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:19 am 
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paddyfritz wrote:
Replica Airguns assertion that the Red Ryder would be prohibited is quite a stretch. It is not a replica of a firearm, and it is not detuned for Canada.


I beg to differ, and you know the eyes of the law get blurry when they feel like it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:24 am 
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There's a Daisy red ryder adult version too. Few inches longer :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:36 am 
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4star60 wrote:
Pretty sure when they say resemble.... they are going to quickly say something like at 50 feet by a peace officer can be mistaken so therefore resembles.. and that will be it.
None of those pistols will be legal.



In poor light condition, if the police officer ask you to freeze/slowly show your hand and for some reason you quickly show him a pair of black gloves.... i dunno what's going to happen.

Thats not even a low end $40 bb gun like.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:01 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
I'm thinking through the keyboard so just scroll past if this annoys you. Some forum members may still be foggy on this subject so the info below may help.

I finally had time to have a quick read through the proposed Bill and related parts of the CCC that apply. Nasty!

It looks like most non-PAL airguns will become prohibited device status but only under some sections of the CCC. The sections that apply would be:

Trafficking weapons (99-101) - can't sell the prohib devices
Exporting/Importing weapons (103-104) - no more replicas to be imported into Canada
Reporting lost of stolen weapon (105) - you can't loose the prohib without reporting
Finding prohib weapon (105) - you can't find a prohib without reporting and giving to police
Destroying prohib weapon (106) - you can't say the prohib was destroyed or tossed in trash
False statements about loss/theft (107) - you can't mislead police about where the prohib went
Authorization & inspection (117.03) - you have to show the prohib at police request

This pretty much says that you can keep the newly declared prohib device but you can't get more, sell it, give it away, lose it, destroy it, find one without reporting, or mislead police as to where it went. You keep the prohib device until you no longer want it then you give it to police to be destroyed. The ownership ends with you. We seem to be exempt from requiring permits or any further restrictions for use so you can still bring the prohib device to the country or the range for shooting.

If you really want a non-PAL airgun then now is the time to buy, before they are declared prohib. Be sure you want to keep the airgun because you can't sell it later.

The RCMP synopsis inserts the words "conventional regulated firearm" into the definition of a prohib device so we can hope this will be how they exercise this Bill if it becomes law. Possibly an amendment will be proposed soon to clear up the language. If not, then the gov't figured out how to get rid of a huge amount of airguns without making criminals out of citizens unless they try to get rid of the device instead of surrendering it.

RCMP Synopsis
Ensure mid-velocity 'replica' firearms are prohibited
- Update the Criminal Code to ensure that any device, including an unregulated airgun that looks exactly like a conventional regulated firearm (i.e., shoots over 500 feet per second), is prohibited for the purposes of import, export, sale and transfer.
- Current owners may keep their 'replicas' but cannot transfer them to anyone else.
- No further 'replica' firearms could be imported into, or sold/transferred in Canada.
- This amendment does not affect other types of airguns that do not exactly replicate a conventional regulated firearm.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:23 pm 
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Without a registration system, this new prohib device category for non-PAL airguns would be difficult to enforce. The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. Maybe keep a bill of sale but maybe it was a used airgun purchase. Dealers never registered serial numbers when all these non-PAL airguns we first sold. Stopping an illegal sale would require prior knowledge the device was being shipped and interrupting the shipment. Once the new owner has the airgun, it would be difficult to prove anything. I'm not promoting illegal activity but just pointing out how some laws are not effective. I think we saw this with the previous gun registration and other old Bills.

The new Bill doesn't seem to address airgun repairs. Can I send a prohib device to a friend for a repair? What if he gets busy and doesn't have time to fix it for a year?

Maybe our FOR SALE sub-forum will slow down but our WANTED section will grow.
Example

WANTED: Someone to repair my Umarex Colt 1911 air pistol. It's worth $175 so I want it fixed.

Once again, I'm not encouraging illegal behaviour. The Bill isn't even law yet. I'm just pointing out a possible weakness that I noticed. Maybe I missed something and there is no weakness at all.

It's possible to stop all new sales of replicas by enforcing on dealers. Eventually a large amount of the plastic replicas will be broken and tossed out anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:53 pm 
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They are not proposing to classify these "replica" airguns as any class of prohibited firearms. They are seeking to classify them as prohibited devices which is very different from prohibited firearms. This bill is idiotic in the extreme and overly vague but they do say that it covers airguns that "resemble with near precision" so a something with a vague resemblance does not fit the bill.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:54 pm 
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TCooper wrote:
Without a registration system, this new prohib device category for non-PAL airguns would be difficult to enforce. The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. Maybe keep a bill of sale but maybe it was a used airgun purchase. Dealers never registered serial numbers when all these non-PAL airguns we first sold. Stopping an illegal sale would require prior knowledge the device was being shipped and interrupting the shipment. Once the new owner has the airgun, it would be difficult to prove anything. I'm not promoting illegal activity but just pointing out how some laws are not effective. I think we saw this with the previous gun registration and other old Bills.

The new Bill doesn't seem to address airgun repairs. Can I send a prohib device to a friend for a repair? What if he gets busy and doesn't have time to fix it for a year?

Maybe our FOR SALE sub-forum will slow down but our WANTED section will grow.
Example

WANTED: Someone to repair my Umarex Colt 1911 air pistol. It's worth $175 so I want it fixed.

Once again, I'm not encouraging illegal behaviour. The Bill isn't even law yet. I'm just pointing out a possible weakness that I noticed. Maybe I missed something and there is no weakness at all.

It's possible to stop all new sales of replicas by enforcing on dealers. Eventually a large amount of the plastic replicas will be broken and tossed out anyway.


"The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. Maybe keep a bill of sale but maybe it was a used airgun purchase." It won't matter as the only illegal aspect is acquiring one. They will however, take it from you, as they are given the right to seize them at any time.

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:24 pm 
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TCooper:
Quote:
Maybe our FOR SALE sub-forum will slow down but our WANTED section will grow.


My guess would be they would both have to disappear. :axe:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:05 pm 
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paddyfritz wrote:
TCooper wrote:
Without a registration system, this new prohib device category for non-PAL airguns would be difficult to enforce. The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. Maybe keep a bill of sale but maybe it was a used airgun purchase. Dealers never registered serial numbers when all these non-PAL airguns we first sold. Stopping an illegal sale would require prior knowledge the device was being shipped and interrupting the shipment. Once the new owner has the airgun, it would be difficult to prove anything. I'm not promoting illegal activity but just pointing out how some laws are not effective. I think we saw this with the previous gun registration and other old Bills.

The new Bill doesn't seem to address airgun repairs. Can I send a prohib device to a friend for a repair? What if he gets busy and doesn't have time to fix it for a year?

Maybe our FOR SALE sub-forum will slow down but our WANTED section will grow.
Example

WANTED: Someone to repair my Umarex Colt 1911 air pistol. It's worth $175 so I want it fixed.

Once again, I'm not encouraging illegal behaviour. The Bill isn't even law yet. I'm just pointing out a possible weakness that I noticed. Maybe I missed something and there is no weakness at all.

It's possible to stop all new sales of replicas by enforcing on dealers. Eventually a large amount of the plastic replicas will be broken and tossed out anyway.


"The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. Maybe keep a bill of sale but maybe it was a used airgun purchase." It won't matter as the only illegal aspect is acquiring one. They will however, take it from you, as they are given the right to seize them at any time.


There is a lot to read in the new proposed Bill. Which section gives the police the right to seize a non-PAL airgun at any time and without a reason?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:08 pm 
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Location: Klowntown BC
Quote:
"The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. It won't matter as the only illegal aspect is acquiring one.

i don't see it that way.
"... is prohibited for the purposes of import, export, sale and transfer...."

nothing there about possessing, purchasing nor 'acquiring'.
the illegal aspect is selling and transferring...

and the cops seeing you with (any) one.
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Last edited by Leon Yrag on Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:29 pm 
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Location: Northern Ontario
TCooper wrote:
paddyfritz wrote:
TCooper wrote:
Without a registration system, this new prohib device category for non-PAL airguns would be difficult to enforce. The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. Maybe keep a bill of sale but maybe it was a used airgun purchase. Dealers never registered serial numbers when all these non-PAL airguns we first sold. Stopping an illegal sale would require prior knowledge the device was being shipped and interrupting the shipment. Once the new owner has the airgun, it would be difficult to prove anything. I'm not promoting illegal activity but just pointing out how some laws are not effective. I think we saw this with the previous gun registration and other old Bills.

The new Bill doesn't seem to address airgun repairs. Can I send a prohib device to a friend for a repair? What if he gets busy and doesn't have time to fix it for a year?

Maybe our FOR SALE sub-forum will slow down but our WANTED section will grow.
Example

WANTED: Someone to repair my Umarex Colt 1911 air pistol. It's worth $175 so I want it fixed.

Once again, I'm not encouraging illegal behaviour. The Bill isn't even law yet. I'm just pointing out a possible weakness that I noticed. Maybe I missed something and there is no weakness at all.

It's possible to stop all new sales of replicas by enforcing on dealers. Eventually a large amount of the plastic replicas will be broken and tossed out anyway.


"The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. Maybe keep a bill of sale but maybe it was a used airgun purchase." It won't matter as the only illegal aspect is acquiring one. They will however, take it from you, as they are given the right to seize them at any time.


There is a lot to read in the new proposed Bill. Which section gives the police the right to seize a non-PAL airgun at any time and without a reason?


Seizure on failure to produce authorization

117.03 a peace officer who finds

(b) a person in possession of a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition who fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence under which the person may lawfully possess it,

may seize the firearm, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device or prohibited ammunition unless its possession by the person in the circumstances in which it is found is authorized by any provision of this Part, or the person is under the direct and immediate supervision of another person who may lawfully possess it.
Return of seized thing on production of authorization

(2) If a person from whom any thing is seized under subsection (1) claims the thing within 14 days after the seizure and produces for inspection by the peace officer by whom it was seized, or any other peace officer having custody of it,

(a) a licence under which the person is lawfully entitled to possess it, and

(b) in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, an authorization and registration certificate for it,

the thing shall without delay be returned to that person.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:42 pm 
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Leon Yrag wrote:
Quote:
"The police can see you shooting legally and ask to see the airgun but I'm not sure how they will know when you acquired it. It won't matter as the only illegal aspect is acquiring one.

i don't see it that way.
"... is prohibited for the purposes of import, export, sale and transfer...."

nothing there about possessing, purchasing nor 'acquiring'.
the illegal aspect is selling and transferring.
_________________
nothing to see here
move along


Seriously?

ac·quire

verb: acquire; 3rd person present: acquires; past tense: acquired; past participle: acquired; gerund or present participle: acquiring

1.
buy or obtain (an asset or object) for oneself.

You would not be able to buy, sell, give, or lend a replica to anyone.

Weapons trafficking

99 (1) Every person commits an offence who

(a) manufactures or transfers, whether or not for consideration, or

(b) offers to do anything referred to in paragraph (a) in respect of

a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm, a non-restricted firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition or any prohibited ammunition knowing that the person is not authorized to do so under the Firearms Act or any other Act of Parliament or any regulations made under any Act of Parliament.

100 (1) Every person commits an offence who possesses a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm, a non-restricted firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition or any prohibited ammunition for the purpose of

(a) transferring it, whether or not for consideration, or

(b) offering to transfer it,

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson.


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