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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:04 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Lower Mainland, BC
ricksplace wrote:
I agree. The top right group tells me the gun can shoot that small group without the flyers. Just have to find the right pellet.

Rick, thanks. Yeah, gun and scope are good.

Those flyers aren’t the pellet. I’ve shot about 7 different ones with this rifle, my Phantom clearly likes this pellet best. Also, these are match pellets now, and I found out why (see photo).

I’m continuing to develop my rest, and working on my hold. But those flyers are biology: it’s about how I feel and think when I pull the trigger. Cheers

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Stephen

Crosman Phantom .22 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 3-9x40 AO Mil Dot

Crosman Optimus .177 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 4x32 AO Mil Dot

Daisy Grizzly 840


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:32 pm 
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Location: Lower Mainland, BC
YepYep wrote:
and I would call the top right one a nice grouping too. You don't need to care about the two fliers when testing the groups


Yes, but . . .

That group is present in all those targets, you can see it. It's only 2 in the first, and lower and left in the 3rd. But it's there. I may have one more session to decide if the scope wants a click up and right.

I had a bunch of quick sessions after work last night, but I was doing chores and getting dinner ready. These four targets were the last session. My first target in any session can be a little twitchy, but sometimes I pin it. I find the midweek ones after work are a bit wild, I'm decompressing from the day and stuff, it may take a bit to settle down. But on the weekend, I often nail it first thing in the morning and it may go downhill as I start going back and forth to other stuff.

I'm chill about it but I do care about fliers. I've thought that I want to be able to hit 80% inside the one inch in six targets on the page before thinking about shooting anything other than paper

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Stephen

Crosman Phantom .22 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 3-9x40 AO Mil Dot

Crosman Optimus .177 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 4x32 AO Mil Dot

Daisy Grizzly 840


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:40 am 
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[emoji38] don't worry~ You can make it~ Just don't forget to have fun on shooting ~

You may just need to separate the sessions by purpose ~ like zeroing the scope, testing pellets, or improving skills on bullseye, holding, breathing ... etc... Lots to do and lots fun in it and rewarding. And try to do one thing in a time so you will have a clear understanding about what is what and what cause what etc...

IMO, make sure scope is working and zeroed first. Then find a good pellet your gun likes and stick on it. These 2 steps better be finished with a rest and eliminate any human errors which would make it difficult to judge the result you got.

Then, practice on anything you like and improve your marksman skill.... This road will never end~ ;)

on the way, from time to time, you may notice an opened group or some missed shots you think it's impossible... Check chrony again, check if dirty barrel , check if you open a new tin of pellets, check if you need to put a click or two on the scope turret, check if a or some screws loosed (scope mount, stock etc etc).... Or, you just didn't have a good sleep last night....

Enjoy your journey ~

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FWB300S Universal
HW 30s / 35e
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:39 pm 
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YepYep wrote:
don't worry~ You can make it~ Just don't forget to have fun on shooting ~

Then, practice on anything you like and improve your marksman skill.... This road will never end

Yep, thanks. Yes, it's super fun! That's what I'm showing. It's what I'm talking about. Yeah, it's a long road.

You know, I've looked back quite far in the forum posts here for information about pellets, there isn't any, really. The stuff I'm learning just this week about my pellets appears to be beyond what I've seen here or on youtube. The other thing I'm not seeing is images of people's target pages. Maybe one target here or there. Everybody talks about their 1/4 inch groupings but I'm not seeing it. It seems like fish tales.

Anyway, I should recap what I've learned and done in this thread for other greenies who may benefit, and let it go. And make a final post about zeroing my scope, because it's funny! And I need to go and get a ream of paper so I can print more targets, I've just run out.

And I'm very grateful to you for your support, and Rick for his depth of knowledge! Super cool. And to NorthernB for reassuring me with his experience with my scope.

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Stephen

Crosman Phantom .22 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 3-9x40 AO Mil Dot

Crosman Optimus .177 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 4x32 AO Mil Dot

Daisy Grizzly 840


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:55 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
What I am seeing in the targets, is a changing "position", either in resting the rifle
or type of hold/pressure/breathing. I found when I first got my HW98, I put a piece
of masking tape on the stock so I had the exact position of the rest contact each shot.
I still got the odd drop in placement by 2" at 20 yards distance, though, and corrected
that by NEVER closing the action/barrel gently. This dropping the shot happened only
when I did that, never when the action was closed briskly. After a couple thousand pellets
it stopped dropping the odd shot, or I became more accustomed to the rifle - one or the other
or maybe both? :roll: :drinkers:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:16 pm 
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Location: GTA, ON
Yeah~ It's a lovely family here indeed~

And sometimes I have difficulty to find a specific info myself from the old posts as except some reviews usually the useful posts were hidden in the long threads which not related to the subject line~ [emoji38]

So, I usually not missing any new posts then... :eek:

Forget how far your range is? 10 yards basement or some luxury longer ranges?!

The group size have to related to the distance to make it useful... A 6 yards 1/4 inch group is not the same as at 100 yards~ hehe~

And we posted lots of our groups here and there... But looks you may easier to find them under something like pellets testing or new gun day etc...

Here are some examples from my guns. I usually will also mark down some extra info on the photos for future reference. Otherwise, a day later, you will just remember nothing about those holes on the paper~

I am a plinker~ So except for zeroing or something else I need a bigger better picture, I usually not shoot the paper targets~ then... I have other pictures in my phone too... ImageImageImageImageImage

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AA ProSport 177 walnut in 12fpe
FWB300S Universal
HW 30s / 35e
HW 40+Extender / Scoped P3 / 45 / 75
Russian Izzy 46M
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Camo Chaser long barrel carbine
PP700SA long barrel carbine


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:26 pm 
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Location: Lower Mainland, BC
YepYep wrote:
Forget how far your range is? 10 yards basement or some luxury longer ranges?!

Yep, thanks for the photos! Not really my thing but super cool and crazy!

I'm shooting 17m indoors. I'm lucky, it's pretty ideal. And safe.

Later

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Stephen

Crosman Phantom .22 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 3-9x40 AO Mil Dot

Crosman Optimus .177 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 4x32 AO Mil Dot

Daisy Grizzly 840


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:10 pm 
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Posts: 635
Location: Thunder Bay
I was out this morning "patterning" my WF600 (B3-4) in .22. Horrible groups. After mucking about for a few targets, I found the forend screws loose. Re-applied locktite 243 then it needs to sit overnight. The attached target shows the shotgunning groups I got. I thought it was me so I shot my B3-1 in .177 that usually shoots pretty well. The top left target shows the 5 shot group. 21 meters, RWS Basic 7.0gr wadcutters at 680 fps. My other detuned B3-3 in .177 is actually more accurate than the B3-1. Now if I can just get the .22 to shoot like its stable mates, I'll be a happy camper.
Edit: That flyer is actually a .22 hole.


Attachments:
20210422_124615.jpg
20210422_124615.jpg [ 614.99 KiB | Viewed 92 times ]

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13 springers and a few pumpers.
2 lathes and lots of scrap metal.

Too soon old too late smart.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:18 pm 
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ricksplace wrote:
I was out this morning "patterning"

Ok, I sort of get it, that's cool.

Here comes my recap . . .

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Crosman Phantom .22 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 3-9x40 AO Mil Dot

Crosman Optimus .177 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 4x32 AO Mil Dot

Daisy Grizzly 840


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:25 pm 
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Location: Lower Mainland, BC
Ok. The recap. And some of what I found out.

I should mention to start with that being a tradesperson, I’m lucky in that I already have stuff laying around that I can use to work on my rifle: tools and sandpaper and stuff. It’s convenient and makes the work and learning easier and more fun. After I opened my rifle the first time, I utilized a work stand I have to be a spring compressor. I also use this stand for my bench rest. The spring compressor is sort of essential, makes opening and closing the rifle easy and quick. And safe.

Taking the rifle completely apart is the basic familiarization task. Cleaning and lubing it properly, it’s a smooth great start. I sanded and smoothed the cuts in the spring tube area, where the cocking arm and trigger assembly go in. I saw a bunch of serious-looking gouges on the original piston seal, from when it may have been installed roughly at the factory. The sanding and smoothing worked, I managed to reinstall the piston and a fresh seal without damaging the seal. But I wouldn’t get too torqued about a perfect seal. Later, when I was rushing the install of the new piston, I managed to shave a little off the top of the seal. I still got 730 fps from it, which from my research is a pretty good velocity for this rifle.

The other very good thing I did in that first disassembly was serious work on the trigger. I think the notorious trigger assembly is a good unit but it’s mass-produced, stamped and cut however at the factory. Without doing the research, I found the trigger, apart from the long travel and the strenuous pull of the spring, to be chunky and grabby when shooting; not great for accuracy.

Foolishly, I took the trigger assembly completely apart without previous study, looked at the pieces and realized there was no way I could reassemble it correctly. Ah, the internet. I was able to find two very good web sites that explained, in detail, the correct disassembly and reassembly procedure. One also explained all the necessary work to improve the operation of the trigger, with photos. I was able to print pages from these sites. The printed pages were very handy as I did my own work.

The work I did is described everywhere but I’ll say it again. It involves looking at the trigger assembly and trying to imagine it’s operation, what pushes what, etc. And then removing rough edges from the manufacture, gently sanding and smoothing points of friction and surfaces that rub. No filing or grinding, you don’t want to affect cocking or the trigger negatively or unsafely. It’s sort of common sense. And then lubricate correctly. After reassembly, turn the adjustment screw all the way in until it gently stops. You’re done.

I think this trigger assembly work is essential, I wouldn’t have another of these rifles without doing it. What this work does, beside just shortening the travel, is largely smooth out the pull of the trigger when shooting. It’s a huge difference. Makes shooting way easier and fun, and more accurate. No more clunking. It still has a rather heavy pull with that spring but it’s smooth and liveable. Now, I’ve read lots about other trigger mod tricks, I haven’t tried them. I think that for the vast majority of shooters, the basic trigger assembly improvement as I’ve described is all that one needs to do. I have tried to compress the spring a little, when I have the rifle apart, to make it’s action lighter, it hasn’t really changed. I may remove the spring at some point, as I’ve seen described. We’ll see.

Whew. What else? Yes, I got the first cheesey scope, it seems a rite of passage that one. Huge improvement because I couldn’t really see over the open sights any more. I had been sort of waving the barrel downrange. With the scope I realized that my rifle was probably accurate enough for what I wanted to do. I could see the open sites through my scope though, as a big cloudy blob. I removed the rear sights by turning out the elevation adjustment thumbscrew completely. Then I could access the 2 screws that attach the base to the barrel. I removed the base, put the screws back into it so they wouldn’t get lost, put the top back on and turned the elevation thumbscrew in again, and put the thing in a ziplock bag for possible later use. Then I looked at how to change or remove the front sight. By this time I had discovered the excellent parts availability from Crosman, and that I could easily replace the front sight, so I just cut the top part off the front sight and left the round cylinder remainder. It’s a little rough but it’s fine. I liked the more streamlined look of the barrel.

Then I got the Chronograph. Amazing! Super cool unit, huge enabler of learning. Love it. Absolutely necessary for any mid-level hobbyist or expert, in my mind. However, it took a good deal of time and effort, and a ton of patience, to figure out how to make it work consistently. I can understand why a good number of people are dissatisfied with them and bail. Figuring out how to light it was the trickiest part. I tried to light it with a LED work lamp I had. Hung it this way, that way. I certainly didn’t want to buy the proper accessory lamps; I didn’t want to spend another 60 bucks and I didn’t want a couple power cords hanging off that I had to plug in. And I had read reviews where plenty of people struggled to make them work, too. With more research I read lots of success stories using little LED lamps. The first store I went to had, again, cheesey little headlamps, cheap to begin with, they were on sale for like 3 bucks each. And they were bright enough, I can’t remember, 200 lumens or something. I got good batteries on sale, still a bit expensive, quite a bit more than the lamps themselves. But LEDs don’t use a lot of power, the batteries will last. I don’t use the Chrony every time I shoot. I didn’t use the cheesey headbands from the lamps, I used a couple small, heavy elastics from broccoli, those blue ones. Put them around the diffusers. Clipped the lights in. Perfect! Super minimal, portable, plenty bright. Then it was finding the sweet spot to shoot through, alignment and how close to the sensors. I still get the odd error, it sometimes doesn’t like the first 2 shots or I’m struggling with alignment on a top target, I might miss 3 or maybe 4 even. But I’ll have multiple sessions of 10 shots and it reads every one. I set the Chrony on a small tripod on a table in front of my bench rest. But I also got a good, adjustable, tall tripod from the thrift store for 12 bucks. I haven’t done it yet but I would be confident taking it outside or to the range.

What else? I was downloading pages of targets from the internet and printing them. It was cool but I wanted more elegant targets and to control the size of the printed rings. I used to use graphics software and I had a favourite drawing program on an old computer. I fired it up, built the targets and laid them out to print on my printer. The rings are exactly as I want, 1/2, 1, 2 and 3 inches.

Then I ordered some parts from Crosman. Worked great, they have great shipping. From the same site, you can download exploded parts diagrams and lists. In my case, I got 2, one for Quest and one for Optimus models.

Ok, this is getting long. I’m gonna take a break and write more later. I hope this helps somebody.

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Stephen

Crosman Phantom .22 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 3-9x40 AO Mil Dot

Crosman Optimus .177 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 4x32 AO Mil Dot

Daisy Grizzly 840


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:18 pm 
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Nice and enjoy ~ :drinkers:

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AA ProSport 177 walnut in 12fpe
FWB300S Universal
HW 30s / 35e
HW 40+Extender / Scoped P3 / 45 / 75
Russian Izzy 46M
2240 14" barrel carbine
Camo Chaser long barrel carbine
PP700SA long barrel carbine


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:04 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Lower Mainland, BC
Recap part 2

I remembered a trick to make reinstalling the trigger assembly easier. When you push the trigger assembly into the rifle tube, you have to somehow hold the sear up, then slide the assembly forward within the tube until it stops. At this point the sear is resting on the outside of the tube and you no longer have to hold it up. Holding the sear up is quite awkward with your fingers, sort of impossible. It’s got a spring pushing it down, it’s small and slippery with lubricant. An easy way to hold it up is when you first put the assembly in, lay a small piece of card stock or something across the opening in the tube and slide it under the front of the sear. The sear will rest on it and you don’t have to try and hold the slippery little sucker up. The card remains under the sear as you slide the assembly forward. When the assembly stops, you can remove the card and voila! The sear is resting on the tube.

Ok. Ordering the parts. I ordered the piston alone first. I wanted to make sure it would work before I ordered the spring and a few smaller parts as spares. This was all new to me and I was relying on information gleaned from internet forums, perhaps this one, but hearsay really. Ordering the piston was great. The cost of the piston was just above the minimum for free shipping from Crosman. It didn’t take too long, I had it in hand, I could measure it and check it against the dimensions I had for it. It was the correct one. I went ahead and ordered the spring and spares (you can see my shipping lists earlier in this thread). And I got those too.

I decided that I was going to wait to install the new, short piston. There were several reasons for this. One was I wanted to see how the new spring and piston seal would affect performance. Another reason was that the new piston would increase the power of the rifle. I knew that the increase in power would make my rifle a firearm under the law and for me to legally possess it, I should have a firearms license. I made plans to get the license and so would wait to install the new piston.

In the meantime, I went ahead and installed the new seal and spring. I immediately regretted not having the Chrony sooner, I would have liked to have tested my unimproved rifle. I was surprised when I Chronied the rifle that there was no increase in velocity with the new seal and spring. I suspect that my long piston version rifle uses the full power spring. And there didn’t seem to be a difference between my new seal and the cut up original one.

With all this and the basic scope, my accuracy was improving. As my accuracy improved, I started trying harder to be yet more accurate. I started paying attention to breathing, even heart rate. I looked at a couple of biathlon videos on youtube. Sort of cool but not really my thing, even though I am an endurance athlete with considerable cardio strength. Then I realized I needed a better scope which brings me to the start of this thread.

While I was making improvements to my rifle with the parts and the scopes, the Chrony, the lubricants, I was also ordering and testing a number of different pellets: seven pellets from different suppliers. I’ve been searching for one or two accurate pellets that might also be a good hunting pellet. It’s been a little tricky, there may be some supply shortages affecting availability. The ones I’ve been able to get are:

Crosman Premier Pointed
JSB Exact Jumbo Express
H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme
H&N Field Target Trophy
H&N Spitzkugel
RWS Superdome
RWS Super-H-Point

With the practice and improvement, I wanted to find out more about the pellets themselves, before the rifle and the Chrongraph. I researched and ordered an appropriate scale. Because I was thinking more about my hold, and bench rest, I ordered a set of basic bench rest bags, together with the scale to get free shipping. These arrived just over a week ago.

Whew. With all these adventures, I could no longer resist the possibility of better shooting with the new piston and went ahead with the install. But that just created a bunch of uncertainty, I made a couple of installation blunders and decided to reinstall the original piston, all detailed in this thread.

The one bit of kit I was missing was the digital caliper, which I just got. Accurate measurement of round objects, very thin objects and interior dimensions was now in my hands. I immediately went to work on a piston liner for my newly detuned Phantom .22.

It went real well. I wasn’t able to work on my rifle, or even shoot because I had left my compression/bench rest stand at work. How could I make the piston liner? Well, I had my short piston to I could test with. And I had the spare spring. And I had precise dimensions of the long piston. And I did the math. I started trying to find any suitable plastic around my house: milk jug, bottom of reusable grocery bag, package from new digital caliper. The math said I could use the thickest, the bottom of the grocery bag. I made it but when I tested it with my spare piston and spring, it was too thick. So I made another from the thinnest material, the digital caliper packaging. Happy coincidence! It seemed to fit very well. I carefully made the triangular cuts to hold it in front of the spacer and cut it to length according to the dimensions for the long piston that I had in my notes.

I brought my stand home on Monday, opened the rifle and got out the spacer. The question: what dimension should I make the diameter of the spacer? In relation to the piston? Simple answer: reduce it by the thickness of the liner material, on either side of the diameter of the spacer. So, twice the thickness of the liner material. That’s what I did.

I have a little old portable vise that clamps to the bench. Luckily, my good cordless drill has a 1/2” chuck that accepted the spacer. I put the drill in the vise. I have a decent Nicholson file, not so aggressive. It took a few minutes at first, I didn’t want to take off any more than necessary. I had my new caliper, checking, checking. I nailed it; .7565”. A couple grits of emery paper. Smooth as.

I carefully inserted it all into the piston, making sure liner, spacer and spring all seated well. Length of the liner was perfect. Seemed nicely snug and tidy. Put her back together.

The result:

Cocking is very smooth. It wasn’t rough before but it’s velvet now. Seems slightly firmer, I could be imagining. With the short cocking stroke of the longer piston, it’s pretty good.

Shooting is quieter. My other hobby is surround sound, I already had a sound level app on my phone. I had tested the rifle before, I think it was 74db? Now, it’s 61db.

Recoil seems calmer too. We’ll see. Liife’s still somewhat frantic tho. Below is the only session I had last evening, started a bit rough then settled down a little. Five shots in the last. 17m.

I’m going to post one more story about zeroing, maybe some Chrony results. Cheers gents


Attachments:
IMG_0311 copy.JPG
IMG_0311 copy.JPG [ 158.28 KiB | Viewed 87 times ]

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Stephen

Crosman Phantom .22 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 3-9x40 AO Mil Dot

Crosman Optimus .177 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 4x32 AO Mil Dot

Daisy Grizzly 840
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:17 am 
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An encouraging start, Steve, but ya gotta do it five out of five.
Three is not really considered a "group," especially when it's three out of five. :wink:
Keep shootin' man. You'll have better ones to show us in no time.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:22 am 
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Location: Thunder Bay
Amazing how loose screws can make such a difference.
I just shot this 5 shot group with my WF600 (B3-4) that was printing patterns yesterday. Yup, that flyer was me. As soon as the sear broke, I knew.
Crosman 14.3gr pointed(!) at 510 fps. Range = 21 meters
I have been using purple Locktite 222MS (milspec) on my guns. It doesnt hold as tight as 243 and is easier to remove. It seems it didnt hold well enough on this gun, so I changed to 243 (blue). Et voila! I am now a happy camper!
I really need to buy some quality pellets.


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20210423_111622.jpg
20210423_111622.jpg [ 437.48 KiB | Viewed 77 times ]
20210423_105835.jpg
20210423_105835.jpg [ 334.11 KiB | Viewed 77 times ]

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13 springers and a few pumpers.
2 lathes and lots of scrap metal.

Too soon old too late smart.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:32 am 
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Posts: 120
Location: Lower Mainland, BC
Daryl wrote:
What I am seeing in the targets, is a changing "position", either in resting the rifle
or type of hold/pressure/breathing. I found when I first got my HW98, I put a piece
of masking tape on the stock so I had the exact position of the rest contact each shot.
I still got the odd drop in placement by 2" at 20 yards distance, though, and corrected
that by NEVER closing the action/barrel gently.

Hey Daryl

Sorry, I didn't see you in the shuffle of posts.

Yeah, you’re spot on there. Good advice. My rest and hold are certainly my weakest links. This is my focus, while I continue to work with pellets. The hardware seems pretty good for now. I’ll start closing the action with a firmer hand.

I had some good advice for bench rest bag filling material, which I didn’t take. I may be refilling my front bag. Ha.

Thanks

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Stephen

Crosman Phantom .22 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 3-9x40 AO Mil Dot

Crosman Optimus .177 495 fps, Hawke Vantage 4x32 AO Mil Dot

Daisy Grizzly 840


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