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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:36 pm 
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Posts: 1117
Location: Winnipeg MB
Edmonton>500, I suspect if we all went to our local MP with your suggestions, like:

"Call your Member of Parliament and tell them the Liberal Government looks pretty freakin' "scary" to you because they have, in the last four years, changed the program from "reducing firearm access to criminals," to, "Ooh, that's black, has a magazine, and looks like something our "expressive," liberal patriots would view as unacceptable."

Grow some balls, people; tell your M.P., no matter what political affiliation, that you've had enough of this sh1t: Canadian Firearm Owners are clearly the opposite to firearm criminals, and have had enough ineffective legislation that turns them into the criminals, and not the criminals into inmates".


We might not get the most favorable response. Or at least not the response most airgunners in Canada or looking for.

My father always told me "you catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar".

I know requiring licensing or registration for replica airguns may sound like another unnecessary inconvenience. But I would much rather be required to get a PAL "light", than have my collection of replica airguns become prohibited. To me is sort of like "the lessor of two evils".

The suggestion of a security card for 200-700 fps airguns seems like a good idea. Sort of like a PAL "light", with maybe just a 2 hour course or challenge exam.

Unfortunately, due to all of the criminal uses of airguns in Canada over the past number of years, the powers that be, felt that things needed to change. Unfortunately it is not a change for the better, in most of our views. I tried to warn about this problem for a couple of years, but fell on deaf ears on this forum.

Also I must say, it is my opinion, this forum might be a better place, if we all tried to self-censor the profanity, and unnecessary comments to our levels of government. I remind you that Manitoba's ruling Conservative party & it's Premier (who was a former elected member of the Federal Reform Party), have publicly supported many parts of Bill C-21.

Also remember that, as I learned in my call with my MP, many of the MPs did not know that an airgun ban was included in Bill C-21.

I try to look at the person running for MP in my area, as much as the party they represents. In my opinion my current MP is a fair person, so I would never use profanity & insults. Especially if they are reaching out to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:13 am 
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Posts: 116
Error wrote:
A lesser pal version would be a good thing... more like the one day safety course you need to take in order to apply for the pal...

The goal is to make sure kids or anyone handle their airguns safely. And maybe learn the right habits for handling firearms in general..



As far as I understood their general idea was that cops can't tell what sort of gun is pointed at them. Nobody said anything about BB guns safety, keep in mind they wanted to ban only replica airguns (at least for now). So license won't make any sense for government. I don't think they introduced it because first of all it's not their intention to allow you to keep your replicas and second, any new license will create a whole framework of new laws and confusions and cost a lot to implement and maintain it. Probably with licensing you'll have to have license to own any airgun, not just replica. Besides that sort of licenses will create base for further restrictions and punishments - the same way they deal with current firearms licensing - if they will control your airgun ownership, regulation can go only one direction and it's not the direction you want : ) So I think any new licenses for airgun is really a bad idea. It might get us a temporary relief, but on the long run it will get things worse.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 am 
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Location: Southern Gulf Islands, Beautiful British Columbia, Canada
Edmonton<500 wrote:
We've got to stand up for the fact that any legislation related to classifications of firearms is useless because the first thing that is required is compliance. Criminals, even viewed through political logic (sic!) are frequently known for not complying to laws and regulations. Furthermore, any government that is classifying guns out of people's hands simply because they "look scary" needs to receive a great deal of attention from Canadians who don't share their "aesthetic preferences"). (Like seriously).

Call your Member of Parliament and tell them the Liberal Government looks pretty freakin' "scary" to you because they have, in the last four years, changed the program from "reducing firearm access to criminals," to, "Ooh, that's black, has a magazine, and looks like something our "expressive," liberal patriots would view as unacceptable."


Bullseye Murray!

You would have thought government and Canadian citizens alike would have learned something positive from the defunct long gun registry -a colossal waste of time, money and resources, with little or no impact whatsoever on gun crime. IMHO, I think we would all be much better off with more energy / resources invested into compliance, rather than lawmaking.

Avianmanor

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Last edited by Avianmanor on Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:29 am 
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My goodness. Shaking my head here.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:52 am 
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scanny wrote:
Error wrote:
A lesser pal version would be a good thing... more like the one day safety course you need to take in order to apply for the pal...

The goal is to make sure kids or anyone handle their airguns safely. And maybe learn the right habits for handling firearms in general..



As far as I understood their general idea was that cops can't tell what sort of gun is pointed at them. Nobody said anything about BB guns safety, keep in mind they wanted to ban only replica airguns (at least for now). So license won't make any sense for government. I don't think they introduced it because first of all it's not their intention to allow you to keep your replicas and second, any new license will create a whole framework of new laws and confusions and cost a lot to implement and maintain it. Probably with licensing you'll have to have license to own any airgun, not just replica. Besides that sort of licenses will create base for further restrictions and punishments - the same way they deal with current firearms licensing - if they will control your airgun ownership, regulation can go only one direction and it's not the direction you want : ) So I think any new licenses for airgun is really a bad idea. It might get us a temporary relief, but on the long run it will get things worse.


It will eventually get worst without any rules... the politicians want something.. you have to give them something.. something that will make them look good. you can't just claim that airgun replicas are armless. Or banning it will kill the industry... it's not gona work.


People don't point their airgun replica at the cop... that is very rare... the cop probably just want to reduce 911 false calls... and to reduce the daily stress..

The airgun industry is going to die without the replicas.. most ppl buy airguns because they are replicas.

I don't know if you know, but there are lots of ppl out there who have lost their pal card due to legal issue.. some of them have to wait years to renew their card, some of them can't.

Upping to 700 or even 800 fps may be an incitative to stick to airguns... owning real live ammo firearms can be such a pain..

Doing the safety firearms course.. just like you do for boating.. can only help us and the industry.

As for implementing the new laws and applying them. Thats not that difficult really.. if you think about it.

At the end, every airgun owners will be happy to use a 700/800 fps airguns without the need of a pal.. who knows. Some of them might decide to stick to airguns because their airguns are powerful enough at the shooting range... 495 fps is just too weak.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:11 pm 
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Posts: 7675
Location: P.G. B.C.
Laws do not effect criminal's access to firearms, real or imagined, nor do laws have any reducing effect on crime. More laws, creates more crime.
Appeasing Politicians is exactly what Politicians want you to do. Liberal, like Socialist politicians fear the private ownership of firearms - ask yourself why.
If a politician fears you owning a firearm, you should fear & be VERY wary of that politician.
Politicians seek control of firearms be pecking away at ownership, peck, peck, peck - more and more restrictions - by piece-meal. Peck, peck, peck. Give
an inch, they want another inch, etc, etc.
We already have laws - against pointing a gun, use of a gun, use of any gun or anything that looks like a gun, is a gun if in the commission of a crime.
That is already illegal. More laws are not needed - this creeping gun law drive must stop, but - it never stops with Liberal/Socialist governments - never.
Give your head a shake if you think there is any way to appease these people. To them, you are nobody, except a voting tool to be lied to over and over.
Trudeau's father said it best in a CBC interview "People are fools. You can fool them over and over again". That was after he had been re-elected. He was
re-elected at least once more.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:20 pm
Posts: 1827
Location: Spruce Grove AB
Daryl wrote:
Laws do not effect criminal's access to firearms, real or imagined, nor do laws have any reducing effect on crime. More laws, creates more crime.
Appeasing Politicians is exactly what Politicians want you to do. Liberal, like Socialist politicians fear the private ownership of firearms - ask yourself why.
If a politician fears you owning a firearm, you should fear & be VERY wary of that politician.
Politicians seek control of firearms be pecking away at ownership, peck, peck, peck - more and more restrictions - by piece-meal. Peck, peck, peck. Give
an inch, they want another inch, etc, etc.
We already have laws - against pointing a gun, use of a gun, use of any gun or anything that looks like a gun, is a gun if in the commission of a crime.
That is already illegal. More laws are not needed - this creeping gun law drive must stop, but - it never stops with Liberal/Socialist governments - never.
Give your head a shake if you think there is any way to appease these people. To them, you are nobody, except a voting tool to be lied to over and over.
Trudeau's father said it best in a CBC interview "People are fools. You can fool them over and over again". That was after he had been re-elected. He was
re-elected at least once more.


Couldn't have said It better myself.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:10 pm
Posts: 1117
Location: Winnipeg MB
Error wrote:
scanny wrote:
Error wrote:
A lesser pal version would be a good thing... more like the one day safety course you need to take in order to apply for the pal...

The goal is to make sure kids or anyone handle their airguns safely. And maybe learn the right habits for handling firearms in general..



As far as I understood their general idea was that cops can't tell what sort of gun is pointed at them. Nobody said anything about BB guns safety, keep in mind they wanted to ban only replica airguns (at least for now). So license won't make any sense for government. I don't think they introduced it because first of all it's not their intention to allow you to keep your replicas and second, any new license will create a whole framework of new laws and confusions and cost a lot to implement and maintain it. Probably with licensing you'll have to have license to own any airgun, not just replica. Besides that sort of licenses will create base for further restrictions and punishments - the same way they deal with current firearms licensing - if they will control your airgun ownership, regulation can go only one direction and it's not the direction you want : ) So I think any new licenses for airgun is really a bad idea. It might get us a temporary relief, but on the long run it will get things worse.


It will eventually get worst without any rules... the politicians want something.. you have to give them something.. something that will make them look good. you can't just claim that airgun replicas are armless. Or banning it will kill the industry... it's not gona work.


People don't point their airgun replica at the cop... that is very rare... the cop probably just want to reduce 911 false calls... and to reduce the daily stress..

The airgun industry is going to die without the replicas.. most ppl buy airguns because they are replicas.

I don't know if you know, but there are lots of ppl out there who have lost their pal card due to legal issue.. some of them have to wait years to renew their card, some of them can't.

Upping to 700 or even 800 fps may be an incitative to stick to airguns... owning real live ammo firearms can be such a pain..

Doing the safety firearms course.. just like you do for boating.. can only help us and the industry.

As for implementing the new laws and applying them. Thats not that difficult really.. if you think about it.

At the end, every airgun owners will be happy to use a 700/800 fps airguns without the need of a pal.. who knows. Some of them might decide to stick to airguns because their airguns are powerful enough at the shooting range... 495 fps is just too weak.


I think forum member "Error" has got it right! If the airgun laws are changed as proposed, it will be close to a death blow for most airgunners, airsofters, & paintball users.

Yes, I agree that the suggestion to have some sort of license to buy replica airguns, will have close to zero effect on those that want to use them for criminal activities. And will be a big inconvenience on all legal users. But the alternative is death to the industry. And do all you airgun tinkers/PCP'ers out there want to have all the Canadian sellers to close for the lack of business, and have to import every part & pellet you need. As without replica airguns, most Cdn. sellers are not going to be able to survive.

Saying it will not stop crime, or it is stupid, may not be the best position to take. Accepting a compromise, as distasteful as it is, is a lot better than losing all.

And don't think of it as losing part of your rights, think of it as keeping our hobby alive. And if they up the PAL limit to something like 700/800 fps, that might be an extra bonus.

Our rights are being eroded every single day, in many different areas. For example, in my Province you now need a special license to drive a one ton pickup truck (over 10,000 lb GVWR). And can not park it on any city street for more than one hour.

So is this really the hill everyone wants to die on? I'm not sure I want to. A tactical retreat and acceptance of a compromise, might be the best option.

Just remember the Vietnamese won a war based on the principle of tactical retreat.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:13 pm 
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Location: Greater Napanee, ON, Canada
Getting silly. Those that suggest it, do the math on a 350 grain slug out of an airgun. Velocity should never be used as the standard for PAL.

Tactical retreat. Except for a couple years when the long gun registration was done away with, we have been steadily back peddling on gun laws. Maybe its time to dig our heals in.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:41 pm 
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Location: Winnipeg MB
Mac, as I said, is this REALLY the hill you want to die on?

Do you really think you have a chance to win this one?

I think it would a tough battle, even with a Conservative majority.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:08 pm 
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Posts: 116
If we assume that your MP really wanted to do C-21 fair to airguns and will push that idea in Liberal caucus, do you think it's maybe be "door in the face " sales technique? Like this one https://www.psychologistworld.com/behav ... -technique ?

Comparing to my MP who didn't reply at all - of course it's at least gives us something, but still I'm upset that we're losing our stuff and freedoms piece by piece and basically for no good reason. I hope I won't live long enough to see that everything needs government approved license and I need safety course before I can brush my teeth and leave my house. Sorry for the rant.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:14 pm 
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Location: Greater Napanee, ON, Canada
BB1Shooter wrote:
Mac, as I said, is this REALLY the hill you want to die on?

Do you really think you have a chance to win this one?

I think it would a tough battle, even with a Conservative majority.


Sometimes it is not the winning or losing, but the willingness to fight. I might suffer a bit on that hill, but I am willing to do that. Breaking an unfair and ridiculous law is maybe something that has to be done to show some resolve rather than just politely standing down and watching our rights continue to be eroded.

Criminals continually break laws and nothing positive is being done to correct that. I am careful to obey the laws, especially regarding guns, and look what it has done for me. Soon I could be a criminal for doing things that were completely legal. Time to push back.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:19 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
No, that is NO licensing appeasement will even be acceptable by the Government. Imagine the quagmire of setting up another PAL system with no hope of policing it and for what, in a
year or so they would just come out with more prohibitions, nullifying the new license system's intended guns. Not going to happen. They are after ALL guns, not just the scary looking
ones. A low powered HW97 is a replica of my PAL(regulated) HW97. Oh no, they meant the ones that look like real firearms. Well, to them, my HW97 IS a real firearm & it is a regulated
firearm. They actually are careful in the wording they choose so that they can expand search and seizure at any time.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:51 pm 
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Since the NDP has publicly come out and announced it does not want an election during the pandemic, and they will be supporting the Liberal government for a while. What's the solution that the government would accept to allow replica airguns?

Since many do not seem to like the idea of some sort of control of, or licensing, the sale and possession replica airguns. What suggestions do you have that tries to keep replica airguns from continually being used in criminal activities? The current gun laws that basically treats any replica used in a criminal activity, the same as if it was a real firearm, does not seem to be working.

Mandatory sentencing does not seem to work either.

All I was doing was proposing a solution that the government might accept, instead of legislating a complete ban.

Not sure defiance is the solution. And I suspect not enough people to get all riled up about the issue Hunting rifles possibly, but not BB guns.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:39 am 
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BB1Shooter wrote:
Since the NDP has publicly come out and announced it does not want an election during the pandemic, and they will be supporting the Liberal government for a while. What's the solution that the government would accept to allow replica airguns?

Since many do not seem to like the idea of some sort of control of, or licensing, the sale and possession replica airguns. What suggestions do you have that tries to keep replica airguns from continually being used in criminal activities? The current gun laws that basically treats any replica used in a criminal activity, the same as if it was a real firearm, does not seem to be working.

Mandatory sentencing does not seem to work either.

All I was doing was proposing a solution that the government might accept, instead of legislating a complete ban.

Not sure defiance is the solution. And I suspect not enough people to get all riled up about the issue Hunting rifles possibly, but not BB guns.



I'm in favor of completely scrapping bill C-21. Or at least remove airgun part of it. Personally I think that problem with using replica airguns in criminal activities is completely made up. What banning replica airguns is really going to achieve in terms or curbing criminal activity? Create a black marked to smuggled replicas? If a criminal decided to use BB gun to do a crime and BB guns are not available he can use deactivated real gun. Or 3D printed replica. Or replica made of wood, epoxy, metal etc. . Or switch to more deadly things like knife, machete or axe. Or home made pipe guns. Or buy a real gun instead since it will be the same penalty to use a real gun as a replica BB gun.

"The current gun laws that basically treats any replica used in a criminal activity, the same as if it was a real firearm, does not seem to be working. "

I think that is the point, when laws are not working, do we really need more laws which won't be working as well or think why it's not working and how to make them working?


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