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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:44 am 
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My opinion is based on the ownership of two Co2 rifles and one PCP, the guns are not the issue but the propellant. Yes an entry level co2 is have the price of an entry level PCP but the Co2 draw backs are to great.

1. The co2 is self regulating but the temperature can change the pressure from 650 psi to 1150 psi. On a cool morning (12 c) you go out and every shot is low and the more you shoot the colder the gas is due to evaporation. You then lay the gun on the tailgate while you finish your coffee and make a few calls, if the sun is out the gun temperature skyrockets to 32 c. Now your next 5 shots are high because you gained 200 fps. Here in Canada this is an every day occurrence 8 months of the year.

2. When a Co2 gun develops a small leak you don't know till you line up a rat in the cross-hairs and pull the trigger all you hear is the hammer slapping the valve. You need to dry fire it every time you take it out of the safe. When a PCP gets a small leak the gauge will show, you just pump it.

3. Co2 cartridges is a continual cost 40 bucks +- for 40 pack at Canadian tire. You can save a lot ordering online. I purchased a new hand pump for $63.00. New from Wes today a pump is $89.99-$129.99

4. If you by a non PAL Co2 then a year later get your PAL you will get a 5 to 20 percent increase in velocity, if you mod the gun. A PCP gun in some cases you can double your velocity after mods.

I look at the Co2 as an outdated technology for rifles and wish I had this knowledge a year ago.
As I looked up the price for pumps at Airgun Archery Fun I see the m11 are now on clearance for $380.99https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/artemis-m11-mk2-177-22-and-25-caliber-495fps-in-stock/


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:55 am 
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For the most part I agree however for the novice getting into the hobby I think it's ideal. For $100 give or take you can get yourself a reasonably accurate and reliable c02 rifle. If you like it you can plan and if need be save for a PCP setup. There is also the replica market which is almost entirely CO2. Not competative target accurate but a lot of fun. Like yourself I wouldn't recommend but I can understand why it would a first choice for some.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:58 am 
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Each have their own pros and cons

Pump- Low cost to operate but a little exercise needed to pump gun
CO2- No pumping required but temperature sensitive and cost for powerlettes
Springer- No pumping or CO2 but some accuracy loss do to recoil
PCP- No CO2 but ,either lots of pumping, or a pre charged bottle required.

I dont think any is better than the other, just different pros and cons

BTW great topic!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:32 pm 
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Location: Spruce Grove AB
5-20% increase? Hmm, I guess it depends on the gun. And don't forget, co2 doesn't only come available in little cartridges. You can bulk fill, in which you are actually filling by weight. Little bit of extra hardware, but everything can basically be had at a paintball shop. (Do they even use co2 anymore?)

I'll also add... That under normal operating conditions, co2 is a lot lower in pressure than PCP. Not too many reports of guys blowing up their co2 guns. Could be wrong tho...

I do hate the temperature sensitivity of CO2.
And it smells funny.
Otherwise it's fun to play with.
And you really can make good power with it.

Looking for a good deal on a PCP rifle?
https://www.airgunforum.ca/store/produc ... ucts_id=98


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:09 pm 
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Location: Winnipeg MB
notec wrote:
Each have their own pros and cons

Pump- Low cost to operate but a little exercise needed to pump gun
CO2- No pumping required but temperature sensitive and cost for powerlettes
Springer- No pumping or CO2 but some accuracy loss do to recoil
PCP- No CO2 but ,either lots of pumping, or a pre charged bottle required.

I dont think any is better than the other, just different pros and cons

BTW great topic!!!



I think Notec said it the best.

We are all a little different and have different likes & dislikes. What one person likes, another may hate. That's what makes a modern democratic society work.

I personally prefer airguns that replicate the real think. I don't really find most PCP guns that appealing. I think some have sort of a Frankenstein look to them.

To me, the ability to shoot a replicating blowback 1911, or a full auto Glock 18C, in the comfort of my own basement range, any time I feel like firing off a few mags., is one of the things that draws me to collecting replica airguns.

If I had to a) Join a gun range. b) Securely pack up the guns I wanted to use (and leave the rest at home) c) Fight traffic, snow, construction, etc., to drive across town to a range d) Accept the rules & constrains of the range e) Buy the ammo, which is a lot more expensive than BBs, pellets, & CO2 f) Shoot g) Drive home and finally h) clean the guns I used & safely store them away, I doubt I would be shooting the 3-4 times a week, as I currently do. Would probably be more like 2-3 times a month.

McRobert, have you ever shot a full auto BB rifle or pistol? I challenge you to dump a 20-50 shot mag. into a target in 2-3 seconds & tell me that it wasn't a blast. And even better, if you can fit most of the shots into a whole the size of a quarter @ 24 ft.

I have over 80 airguns, a majority of which are CO2 powered. I still have no interest in getting a PCP rifle. The closest I ever got was ogling the Virtus MCX, and trying to figure out if I could use a 90 gm. CO2 in it.

There must be something to this CO2 replica airgun thing, because the manufacturers keep coming out with new products. Many of which are replicas of firearms that even most Americans can't legally own, & Canadians can only dream about. For example the full auto Glock 18C copy (Barra 009), & the M3 Grease Gun (soon to be released by Umarex).

If you are willing to accept the limitations of CO2, you might appreciate them a bit more. As an old gun enthusiast once said, "a man's got to know his limitations":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52yjY_7RgZw


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:46 pm 
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Part of the reason I decided to build a 2260 out of my 2240 was that further down the road I could reuse much of it to build a HPA rifle. By the time I get there it would have been cheaper to just buy one to start with I suspect but not as fun or educational.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:52 pm 
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Headdamage wrote:
Part of the reason I decided to build a 2260 out of my 2240 was that further down the road I could reuse much of it to build a HPA rifle. By the time I get there it would have been cheaper to just buy one to start with I suspect but not as fun or educational.



That was my plan with my QB78.......went from co2 capsules to bulk feed and had I kept it, HPA..........


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:54 pm 
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I agree with notec ~ everything has their pros and cons. For my own experience, I don't recommend a person new to the hobby to buy PCP. And I love springers, self contained, not sensitive to temperature at all, power range from sub 500 to 18 fpe with dead on accuracy, challenging and rewarding... But it's just for me, and that's enough ~

Anyway, I enjoy my cz200 PCP and my other quite a few that powered by co2 too~

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:58 pm 
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Headdamage wrote:
By the time I get there it would have been cheaper to just buy one to start with I suspect but not as fun or educational.


Usually building your own would cost much more than just buy one to start ~ [emoji38] but you are right! Can't agree more, the process to build your own just so much fun and educational!! I have many same experience ~ a good shooter must know his equipments~

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CZ200s Color Laminated tuned to 10fpe
AA ProSport 177 Walnut in 12fpe
FWB300S Universal
HW 30s / 35e
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Russian Izzy 46M
2240 14" barrel carbine


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:02 pm 
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YepYep wrote:
Usually building your own would cost much more than just buy one to start ~ [emoji38]

Isnt that the truth.......I had a 2240 that over a few years spent around 500$ on. But I could buy the same setup from a forum member for a fraction of that lol..........but the fun was in the modding..........

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:24 pm 
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In my preferred aspect of ag shooting, ISSF 10m rifle and pistol there are or was co2 options that could produce scores far higher than I am capable of. Goes for springers as well. I'm PCP through and through these days but I'll pull out a co2 rifle or pistol time to time and enjoy the experience.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:23 pm
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Location: Calgary
Is there any advantage to CO2 bulk fill conversions other than cost savings on the CO2? I gather that HPA can provide higher performance ,as well as cost savings, due to the higher pressure that can be used.

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Slavia 630/77
Slavia 624
1322
1377
2240
2240/2260 20"
WF600
Vantage .22
Vantage .22 (.177 if the barrel shows up)
Walther Falcon Hunter .22
Walther Talon Magnum .25


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:32 pm 
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Headdamage wrote:
Is there any advantage to CO2 bulk fill conversions other than cost savings on the CO2? I gather that HPA can provide higher performance ,as well as cost savings, due to the higher pressure that can be used.


Nope, that is it. Much much cheaper to fill than to use 12g or even worse the 88g stuff used in the sig mpx. Just brutal in price. I wouldn't say that hpa is cost savings but yes, higher performance due to the higher pressure available. CO2 will only ever be around 850psi.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:42 pm 
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Location: Spruce Grove AB
By cooling the co2 cylinder and warming the source bottle you can get more co2 into it. I don't remember the science behind it, but a lot of the old tuners were doing it, getting good output. I remember seeing a graph somewhere... I bet it was either here or the old crosman green forum.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:06 pm 
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This is a graph that shows the relationship between temperature and pressure of Co2 gas. I wish I would have seen this before I bought a Co2 Rifle

This week a neighbour of my fathers came by to ask about a new airgun. This encounter was the reason for this post as he was looking for a new gun for vermin at the neighbouring farm. He was looking at a new Co2 rifle, but he was unaware about the winter limitations. I took him my PCP to try, he is now looking at new PCP, he already has 2 break barrels.

My guns are sole purpose, a gun for rats a gun for bunnies and my next gun will be for hogs.


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