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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:23 pm
Posts: 218
Location: Calgary
What is the best/most cost efficient way to reach 500fps with 10 pumps on a 1322? Currently 10 pumps is ~440fps with a 14.3gr pellet, 18 pumps is 500fps with the same pellet. Barrel, valve, hammer, piston, and hammer spring are stock. I have added a steel breech. I've also had the gun completely striped apart including the valve to look for any obvious detuning to undo (I found none, unlike the 1377 which had a bleed hole and a small port).

I assume valve mods give more power but also take more pumping to get back to where you were due to increased volume resulting in lower pressure for the same number of pumps.

A 14.5" barrel seems like the cheapest option though asking the 4.5" extra to make up 60fps seems sort of 50/50 to me.

A stuffed piston or solid brass/aluminum piston might help but to what degree I am uncertain.

Flattop piston and valve combo seems to offer the highest performance but again I'm unclear on if this helps much before 10 pumps or mostly for high pump number such as 20.

Any input would be welcome.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:30 pm 
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Hi, sorry to speak about that, but have you considered the legal aspects of your project? If your 1322 is already shooting a 14.3 grains pellet @ 440 fps, this makes 6.15 fpe, which is over the limit of 4.2 fpe for non-RPAL air handguns. If you'd use a lead-free light-weight pellet, without modding the gun you may well be on the edge of 500 fps. Be prudent and get a chrony to tune your pistol.

FYI, the ''new'' P1322 and P1377 have a more rigid piston, made from a better plastic than the preceding generations, which helps power. Also, as a substitute for FPS, try more FPE by using heavier pellets, like 18 grains JSB or H&Ns.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:20 pm
Posts: 1998
Location: Spruce Grove AB
I'd say flat top piston and valve.
Barrel length only helps if you got enough pressure and volume to utilize it. You might get some gains by swapping the barrel, but then you need a barrel band for it. And the plastic breech is poor with a long barrel hanging from it. Unless you've upgraded to steel breech and a decent barrel band, I wouldn't bother with the longer barrel.
Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:55 pm 
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Location: Calgary
I have a chronograph, two actually, and I've got the steel breech installed. I am leaning towards keeping it the stock barrel length just to keep it handy as I use this 1322 as a game bird gun on occasion and if I'm going to have to deal with a long barrel I might as well use the 22lr or .410.

As for legality I have cut and paste this from the RCMP...

Quote:
Air guns that are firearms for purposes of both the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code

These are air guns with both a high muzzle velocity (greater than 152.4 metres or 500 feet per second) and a high muzzle energy (greater than 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot-pounds). Air guns need to exceed both thresholds to be classified as firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act.


What this means in the case of the 1322 is that it can be 499fps with a 14.3gr pellet and still not be classified as a firearm under the above definition. Although it is generating 8 ft-lbs it is still under 500fps, if it was 500fps and 8 ft-lbs it would be a firearm and being a pistol a restricted one at that.

If I have got this wrong please correct me before I get myself in trouble.

This determination of what is a firearm is why my 2240 is now a 2260. As a 2260 and with an overall length of at least 26" it will not become a restricted firearm if/when I tune it up over 500fps. It will be a firearm but that is fine because I have my PAL.

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Slavia 630/77
Slavia 624
1322
1377
2240
2240/2260 20"
WF600
Vantage .22
Vantage .22 (.177 if the barrel shows up)
Walther Falcon Hunter .22
Walther Talon Magnum .25


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:20 pm
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Location: Spruce Grove AB
The big caution is, it may be possible to shoot a lighter pellet over 500, and if you do there is a chance that it is producing too much energy as well. The only way to know is to try.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:24 am 
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Location: Calgary
Yep, I'm using the chrony when ever I do something to the gun to see what the effect is. I'll try to tune it to about 490fps for a little wiggle room. I wish there was a rifle main tube for the 13xx guns the way the 2260 tube can be used for the 22xx guns to avoid the restricted class when crossing the 500fps line.

_________________
Slavia 630/77
Slavia 624
1322
1377
2240
2240/2260 20"
WF600
Vantage .22
Vantage .22 (.177 if the barrel shows up)
Walther Falcon Hunter .22
Walther Talon Magnum .25


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:46 am 
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Location: Eastern Townships
killercrow wrote:
The big caution is, it may be possible to shoot a lighter pellet over 500, and if you do there is a chance that it is producing too much energy as well. The only way to know is to try.


Exactly. A .22 H&N FTT Green 9.56 grains pellet, if shot @ 499 FPS, will make 5.29 FPE. If the gun is already shooting a 14.3 grains pellet @ 490 FPS, it's garanteed that the FTT Green pellets WILL get over both limits (FPS & FPE) with that airgun. Thing is, the RCMP may well test an airgun with the lightest commercially available pellet, not necessarily the pellet YOU choose and use.

Headdamage wrote:
Yep, I'm using the chrony when ever I do something to the gun to see what the effect is. I'll try to tune it to about 490fps for a little wiggle room. I wish there was a rifle main tube for the 13xx guns the way the 2260 tube can be used for the 22xx guns to avoid the restricted class when crossing the 500fps line.


The Crosman 760 rifle has exactly the same valve/piston and piston stroke as the 13xx pistols, the difference being in the rear part of the tube. If you want to use the common 13xx/22xx pistol grip and breech, the tube must be modified, but it's relatively easy. If going for a rifle platform, you could also use the Crosman 66/M4-177 or 2100/AM77 tube for more piston stroke.

Here's my M4-22 carbine: built with a modded Crosman M4-177 pump tube, steel breech, stock valve and piston, OEM 13xx pistol grip, 19'' .22 barrel, 435 FPS with 14.3 grains pellets, 455 with RWS Hobby 11.9 grains (@ ten pumps). At that power level with that long barrel, the carbine is pretty quiet and pleasant to shoot :wink: .


Attachments:
M4-22.JPG
M4-22.JPG [ 39.53 KiB | Viewed 242 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:12 am 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
Power modding an air pistol is fun...but only to a certain point ...which is why I like the 760's or ANY of the pumper rifles...with pal in pocket you can power mod these rifles to the moon... :D

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:35 am 
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There are many, many posts on this on CAF. Take a minute to look them up. Otherwise we just have another post asking the same questions.

And as others have stated, this will bring unwanted attention to you.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:23 pm
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Location: Calgary
I'll keep that in mind and I'll have a look at those other tube options while my 1322 is still set for 440fps with 14.3gr pellets. I did not know that there where much lighter pellets in .22 commonly available. Thank you.

I just did some calculations and taking a 9.96gr pellet into account and the speed of a 14.3gr pellet would have to be kept down to ~400fps to avoid risking a 9.96gr pellet from both reaching 500fps and exceeding 4.2 ft-lbs. I guess that might be why the 1322 seems so under tuned compared to it's marketed 460fps. Bugger, I was enjoying the simplicity of air guns compared to my licensed firearms. Turns out those kill joys in power have messed this up as well. If anyone is watching my 1322 still has it's stock parts installed and the only mods are a butt stock and steel breach. I really need to look into those rifle tubes now.

I see Canadian Tire has the 760 kit on sale for $75 right now, seems like a cheap enough way to check the conversion out.

_________________
Slavia 630/77
Slavia 624
1322
1377
2240
2240/2260 20"
WF600
Vantage .22
Vantage .22 (.177 if the barrel shows up)
Walther Falcon Hunter .22
Walther Talon Magnum .25


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:02 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
Headdamage wrote:
I'll keep that in mind and I'll have a look at those other tube options while my 1322 is still set for 440fps with 14.3gr pellets. I did not know that there where much lighter pellets in .22 commonly available. Thank you.

I just did some calculations and taking a 9.96gr pellet into account and the speed of a 14.3gr pellet would have to be kept down to ~400fps to avoid risking a 9.96gr pellet from both reaching 500fps and exceeding 4.2 ft-lbs. I guess that might be why the 1322 seems so under tuned compared to it's marketed 460fps. Bugger, I was enjoying the simplicity of air guns compared to my licensed firearms. Turns out those kill joys in power have messed this up as well. If anyone is watching my 1322 still has it's stock parts installed and the only mods are a butt stock and steel breach. I really need to look into those rifle tubes now.

I see Canadian Tire has the 760 kit on sale for $75 right now, seems like a cheap enough way to check the conversion out.


I can tell you the 760 I bought provides a lot of fun for the money and I'll leave it to what I have already done to it...quite an improvement...I hope you post your results when you're finished with the 760(should you buy one)... :D

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:37 pm 
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Posts: 218
Location: Calgary
There certainly is a good deal on information on this site. I've had some trouble coming up with the right search queries to find it though. This tread is right on the mark:

https://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic75467.html

Not sure if I'll pick up the complete 760 or just a tube. The tubes only cost about $13 so picking up a couple of those (extra to allow for screwing it up) might be a better idea from a cost view. The part that I'm concerned about with this conversion is that the 760 tubes are apparently unmarked so I'm not sure if this would, in fact, make a 13xx with a 760 tube anything other than a 13xx. If it were just a mater of having an unmark tube I could just buy one of those and save the conversion trouble that that doesn't feel like it would meet the legal need to have it not be a 13xx. There is talk of it on the site but I can't seem to find a definitive answer.

There is a possible precedent for this to work. In the past the RCMP firearms lab has said that a modified (modified to semi auto) fully automatic receiver can be used to build a non-restricted semi automatic firearm as long as the receiver was never assembled into a complete firearm to start with. However, this was a very surprising decision at the time and I don't know if they would still stand behind it. Also the modification of the receiver from full to semi auto was done by the original manufacturer of the firearm in question.

And I've fallen down another rabbit hole...

_________________
Slavia 630/77
Slavia 624
1322
1377
2240
2240/2260 20"
WF600
Vantage .22
Vantage .22 (.177 if the barrel shows up)
Walther Falcon Hunter .22
Walther Talon Magnum .25


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:19 pm
Posts: 9235
Location: Coalmont BC
A stock 1322 is a non-PAL pistol.... If you modify it in any way, you run the risk of it becoming a restricted firearm.... There is nothing to say what weight pellet must be used for testing your modification, or how many pumps can be used by those doing the testing.... You state you can already reach 500 fps by overpumping, so given that I would not do any changes.... JMO....

Bob

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:23 pm
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Location: Calgary
Agreed, I'm going to leave the 1322 alone and get back to the 2260 clearly legal projects.

_________________
Slavia 630/77
Slavia 624
1322
1377
2240
2240/2260 20"
WF600
Vantage .22
Vantage .22 (.177 if the barrel shows up)
Walther Falcon Hunter .22
Walther Talon Magnum .25


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:19 pm 
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Headdamage wrote:
Agreed, I'm going to leave the 1322 alone and get back to the 2260 clearly legal projects.



Now you got it :wink: :mrgreen:

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