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The Professional
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:45 pm 
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Posts: 55
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Ozzie21 wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas or experience in getting a little more power out of air pistols?
I've got 2 UMAREX BB air pistols and an old Daisy pellet pistol that is like new. The 2 UMAREX pistols are very well built and realistic in appearance and operation but my old Daisy actually hits harder, probably partly due to being a pellet pistol. But the build quality and appearance doesn't come close to my UMAREX M&P 40 and my Beretta M92 A1.
I've read articles and seen a few videos where guys have done what's called "dieseling" but I don't really want to go that route. It seems like more of a hassle than anything else and it might do some damage to the firearm and seems like it can be inconsistent and unreliable.
I'd like to get a bit higher fps which should result is hitting a bit harder and being more accurate for longer distances.
I've seen where a few guys have attached barrels that were extended a few inches and you can get an increase in fps but also extending a barrel too much actually reduces performance. I haven't seen anywhere that extended barrels can be bought.
Understood there's only so much that can be done and still remain reliable and also some places have laws limiting airgun power but if it's possible to get a little closer to how my pellet pistol performs I'd like to give it a try.
Any suggestions?


On any Co2 airguns the ONLY solution reside in having a longer delay when the hammer hit the valve in order to push more Co2 per shot. thats your ONLY option !

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Ozzie21
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:55 pm
Posts: 54
The Professional wrote:
Ozzie21 wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas or experience in getting a little more power out of air pistols?
I've got 2 UMAREX BB air pistols and an old Daisy pellet pistol that is like new. The 2 UMAREX pistols are very well built and realistic in appearance and operation but my old Daisy actually hits harder, probably partly due to being a pellet pistol. But the build quality and appearance doesn't come close to my UMAREX M&P 40 and my Beretta M92 A1.
I've read articles and seen a few videos where guys have done what's called "dieseling" but I don't really want to go that route. It seems like more of a hassle than anything else and it might do some damage to the firearm and seems like it can be inconsistent and unreliable.
I'd like to get a bit higher fps which should result is hitting a bit harder and being more accurate for longer distances.
I've seen where a few guys have attached barrels that were extended a few inches and you can get an increase in fps but also extending a barrel too much actually reduces performance. I haven't seen anywhere that extended barrels can be bought.
Understood there's only so much that can be done and still remain reliable and also some places have laws limiting airgun power but if it's possible to get a little closer to how my pellet pistol performs I'd like to give it a try.
Any suggestions?


On any Co2 airguns the ONLY solution reside in having a longer delay when the hammer hit the valve in order to push more Co2 per shot. thats your ONLY option !


Understood, but the logic behind opening up the area that the CO2 can pass through in the firing valve makes sense. It's like taking a car or motorcycle and porting the heads to allow more flow resulting in more HP. I think by having more open area at the firing valve for CO2 to pass through should result in at least 2x, probably 3x open area. He said he got around 30 fps more velocity. Sounds like a good starting point to me, but I'm open to any suggestions that make sense.
How would you modify an air gun to result in a longer delay when the hammer hits the valve? Would you need the hammer to create more pressure or force? I think that would difficult to calibrate or regulate to be consistent?
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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:17 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
Much depends on the balance between port size and the volume of gas/air.
If the port is properly sized to achieve the maximum amount of vel. from the gas discharged, making the
port larger will give more room for that gas to go, thus reducing the amount of gas available to push the
pellet. In this instance, enlarging the port would result in reduced vel.
That's how porting appears to me, right or wrong.
Thus to increase vel. increased volume of gas would be needed. The larger port would, of course handle more
gas improving vel.

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Ozzie21
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:00 pm 
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Daryl wrote:
Much depends on the balance between port size and the volume of gas/air.
If the port is properly sized to achieve the maximum amount of vel. from the gas discharged, making the
port larger will give more room for that gas to go, thus reducing the amount of gas available to push the
pellet. In this instance, enlarging the port would result in reduced vel.
That's how porting appears to me, right or wrong.
Thus to increase vel. increased volume of gas would be needed. The larger port would, of course handle more
gas improving vel.


Enlarging the port as shown in the photo and YT video as this guy did wouldn't necessarily result in reduced velocity as long as the only modification was the port enlargement because it was the only modification done. I have personal experience in porting and polishing motorcycle heads. There's a lot of variables that could have both good and bad effects and surprisingly might contradict what you might think would be logical. Bigger isn't always better and sometimes contouring a passageway rather than making it larger can result in improved performance. I'm sort of surprised that more research and experimenting hasn't been done like this. Anyway, according to what the guy in the YT video said, hoping he's not BS'ing, this resulted in an improvement and seems like a good place to start. I've ordered an AceTech AC6000 BT Chronograph which is supposed to be a pretty decent chronograph for evaluating air guns. I think I'm going to try this mod when I've received my spares order.


Attachments:
Capture AC6000BT Chrono.JPG
Capture AC6000BT Chrono.JPG [ 64.84 KiB | Viewed 258 times ]
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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:01 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
I ported and polished the intakes on my liquid cooled RD350's reed cage. What that did, as you know, was make a smoother, enlarged passage and allowed MORE fuel and air to be ingested
per down stroke of the piston.
With a fixed system, hammer blow/shut-off of gas, more fuel isn't allowed unless the duration of the blow is changed.
What am I missing?

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Ozzie21
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:02 pm 
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We can debate theory of this and that endlessly but testing is needed to try and prove or disprove a theory. What seems to be a fact (unless the guy who did the mod to the firing valve and posted the YT video is BS'ing), is that this modification resulted in an improvement. Such a mod might result in more or less improvement, or maybe even a negative result depending on varying characteristics of different air guns. So sometime in the future I'm going to do it, impartially test it with a chronograph and report whether it works or not.
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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:02 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
Time will tell.

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Ozzie21
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:03 pm 
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So I was able to chrono test my pistols today. Results were pretty much what I expected. I was going to try and hot rod the M&P40 but I don't know if I should bother now. It's gotta go quite a ways to catch up to the Crosman Night Stalker, and it's probably not realistically achievable. I bought it for practise because I've got a "real" M&P40 x .40 caliber. I think I'll just use it for that as I originally planned.
FYI, of all the three BB pistols I have, the most powerful one, the Crosman Night Stalker, was the cheapest to buy. I got it on sale a couple of weeks ago at Princess Auto for $89 CAD.
It seems like all air gun manufacturers must get their fps velocity specs done from the same companies that do mileage testing for new vehicles....lol. But I've read they all use light weight BB's and pellets to get the higher velocities.
I posted a review here today of the AceTech AC6000BT chronograph I received yesterday. It is an excellent chrono for air guns.


Attachments:
Capture Chronograph Comparison Night Stalker & M&P40 & M92A1.JPG
Capture Chronograph Comparison Night Stalker & M&P40 & M92A1.JPG [ 263.57 KiB | Viewed 235 times ]
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clarky
 Post subject: Re: Power Increase?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:21 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:52 pm
Posts: 140
You should use a longer barrel. Any length which exceeds the true muzzle could have a mock compensator made up and fitted so that it does not spoil the look too much, but these things are what they are…low power Co2 pistols which are very impacted by any down shift in ambient temp, or from the cooling of the gun during operation….They are ok in 20 degree temps i suppose.

As regard rifling, there is some error here. Ball rounds do work better with rifling and do stabilise better in rifling. Ask any ball round shooters of later specimens of muzzle loading stuff and they will tell you loud and clear. A mild stabilising effect does occur from gyroscopic effect, but much better from conical loads of course, but still present. However, they usually went with a very slow twist rate of 1/40 to 1/60.
Did not the Makarov first variants get rifled barrels and usually fared well in accuracy comparisons when using lead ball rounds.
Apparently, steel balls rattled in the rifling and could not bite into the rifling causing erratic groupings.
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