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Ravenairgun
 Post subject: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 12:47 pm 
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if the legal limit for airguns before there considered a fire arm is 500 fps and 4.2 ft lbs how come u can buy a .22 cal rifle at 495 fps and buy 14.3 grain pellets.....and .25 cal rifles at 495 fps without a permit?
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TCooper
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 12:49 pm 
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Ravenairgun wrote:
if the legal limit for airguns before there considered a fire arm is 500 fps and 4.2 ft lbs how come u can buy a .22 cal rifle at 495 fps and buy 14.3 grain pellets.....and .25 cal rifles at 495 fps without a permit?



under 500 fps or 4.2 ft lbs
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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 12:57 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
Close It's all in the wording.
Thought the way it was worded was if it produced over 500fps AND 4.2fpe, it was a regulated firearm for licensing purposes.
Thus, any calibre producing under 500fps but over 4.2fpe is NOT classified as a firearm.
If it is used AS A FIREARM, as in something illegal, like holding up a bank, it becomes a firearm, even if it is a banana.

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Ravenairgun
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 1:31 pm 
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no its anything over 500 fps and over 4.2 ft lbs is considered a firearm.....

anyone can legaly buy without a permit a .22 cal airgun 500fps and 14.3 gr pellets ( 7.94 ft lbs)

and .25 call 25.39 gr pellets at 500 fps...(14.1 ft lbs)

not that i care im just saying...hows that make sense?
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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 1:47 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
Ravenairgun wrote:
no its anything over 500 fps and over 4.2 ft lbs is considered a firearm.....

anyone can legaly buy without a permit a .22 cal airgun and 14.3 gr pellets ( 7.94 ft lbs)

and .25 call 500 fps...(14.1 ft lbs)

not that i care im just saying...hows that make sense?



That's what I said - if it produces over 500fps AND 4.2fpe, it's a firearm. Makes perfect sense. It must over over BOTH to be classified as a firearm.
If either one is not met, it is not a firearm for licensing purposes.

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Ravenairgun
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 1:49 pm 
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so you can legaly shoot a airgun at 500 fps and doesnt matter if the FPE is higher then 4.2 ft lbs... as long as the FPS is 500 or lower?

or shoot a pellet at 800 fps as long as the FPE is under 4.2 ft lbs?

i think i get what ur saying... i thought both had to be met to be a fire arm not either or....

to me it sounded like a loop hole type thing because u can shoot a 14.3 gr pellet at 500 but get a greater fpe...but u can legaly buy it without a permit

thanks for clearing that up...
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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 2:02 pm 
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Right - has to meet both - but - if pushing the 'border' on sub 500fps, there had better not be an easily available pellet that will produce BOTH criteria.

Food for thought, if there was a .12 or .14 calibre air rifle, with standard pellets they could likely produce 700fps or more and still not make the fpe limit of 4.2fpe, thus would not be firearms.
Can you imagine trying to load those?

In powder burners, there have been/are Wildcat ctg's from .15", .14", .12" and .10 calibre. Yeah - 1/10" groove diameter.

When you consider even low powered .22LR target ammo produces about 1,080fps and 104fpe, 4.2 is not very much.

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Last edited by Daryl on Wed May 17, 2023 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ravenairgun
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 2:06 pm 
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sorry but i dont get how you say any 500 fps airgun is not a fire arm when if you shoot a .22 cal at 500 fps with a 14.3 gr pellet it produces almost 8 fpe which is more the the legal limit of 4.2 fpe which means that 500 fps gun is a fire arm .....which u can buy legaly...


so your saying...if that 22 call shot a 14.3 gr pellet at say 600 fps with with 11.43 fpe then its now considered a fire arm...


but you can shoot it a 500 fps with a 14.3 gr pellet at 8fpe and its legal?

just as long as either or the speed or the fpe is met?....

then why even make air guns with permits when u can just drop an extra heavy pellet in it and make it shoot 500 fps....makes no sense


Last edited by Ravenairgun on Wed May 17, 2023 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 2:16 pm 
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Sub 500fps and sub 4.2fpe. Both must be exceeded to be classified as a firearm.

In Germany, they have an FPE limit like England, but the limit is 5 fpe. Like England's 12fpe, there is no limit on velocity, just fpe.

Jorg (slingshot channel) did a video on a .30 or .35 cal. FX that produced under 5fpe. Go figure - might have been 5 Joules, not fpe.

Conversely a .177 calibre rifle, delivering 600fps with a 4.2gr. pellet produces only 3.35fpe. Thus, it is not classified as a firearm, provided it doesn't exceed both 'limits' with heavier pellets.
I think it is a better criteria than just one or the other.

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Ravenairgun
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 2:19 pm 
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personaly i think its a loop hole that makes no sense

you can just put extra heavy pellets in any air gun and make it shoot 500 fps or lighter pellets that shoot over 500 fps with less fpe...
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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 2:29 pm 
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OK - look at it this way.
In .22 calibre(or larger), the velocity is the governing factor as even the lightest projectiles available are under 500fps in Canadian-version non-firearms air rifles and pistols, yet they all exceed 4.2fpe.
In .177 calibre, due to the VERY light weight alloy pellets, some speeds over 500fps are attainable, yet the 4.2fpe OR 500fps is not exceeded with ANY available pellets - thus still aren't classified as firearms.
To be classified as a firearm, it must produce over 500fps as well as over 4.2fpe.

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Last edited by Daryl on Wed May 17, 2023 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ravenairgun
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 2:33 pm 
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ok so as long as its 500 fps you can legaly have any fpe you like or vice versa

just saying then the fps can only be determined by the pellet weight....

they should add the pellet weight when you go to buy a high powered air rifle that requires a license would just make a bit more sense...
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Daryl
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 4:02 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
If a gun produces over the 500fps AND 4.2fpe with ANY pellet, it's a firearm no matter what it produces with other pellets.
That is why the Canadian law is better than the German law on firearms. It would be nice, though, to be able to
shoot up to 12fpe, for pesting without having to have a P.A.L. The Brits. seem to be able to pest quite well with their non-Firearms rifles.

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sillymike
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:03 pm
Posts: 1227
People ought to know by now
- Gun laws don't make sense...

Same reason why some rifles 308 (7.62x51) are non-restricted, restricted or prohibited... with no empirical data to back the classification.
- Because they said so is apparently enough justification

:axe:
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Ravenairgun
 Post subject: Re: just wondering...
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 4:38 pm 
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Posts: 642
how does that make sense tho im not trying to argue im acculy confused

the gun canot shoot over 500 fps AND 4.2 fpe energy with ANY pellet or its a fire arm..

you can legaly buy a .22 cal and put an 11 grain pellet that shoots 600 fps and has 8.8 FPE

you can legaly buy a .25 cal and put a 19.8 grain pellet at 600 and get 15.83 FPE

so how can you say with any pellet it makes zero sense
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