Canadian Airgun Forum

I see that NON-PAL rifles of all calibers from .117 all the way to 9mm are available for purchase. CanadaShootingSupply for instance has 9mm NON-PAL rifles (.35 cal) that shoot at 420fps. Clearly that's above 6J of power and less than 500fps. It's in a case, leaned up against the wall in my studio as I write this.

Now if one would shoot a very light .35 cal projectile in the same rifle, and exceed 500fps, one would be breaking the law.

So far I think we can all agree that as long as I don't put any weirdly light ammo in there, everything's fine.

With that in mind, what if you had a .22 that can shoot an 18gr pellet at 480fps. That same gun would fire 14.3gr pellets down range at speeds exceeding 500fps, which is clearly illegal.

My Question: For NON-PAL rifles, and NON-RPAL pistols, are you allowed to have a .22 that shoots heavy pellets at 480fps, even though lighter pellets would exceed 500fps?

Let's say specifically the JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellet weighing 18.13 gr and you tune the gun to shoot these at 480. If some clown then goes and puts HyperMax pellets in there that are only 9.9 gr .. the pellet would blow out of there at 800fps!

Actually HyperMax 9.9gr pellets are most likely illegal in just about any Crosman 2240 right?

I'm confused. Can I tune my .22 to shoot heavy pellets at 480?

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Province: Ontario
May all who are afraid of discourse find their rights trampled further.
Cowardice is never rewarded.

That clown would be breaking the law.

It's up to the user not to use a projectile that could cause the gun to exceed 500 fps.

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Be The Pellet

That's my sentiment exactly. If my gun was tuned to shoot 18 gr pellets at 480, then I guarantee that it would be the lightest .22 pellet in my prosession as well ESPECIALLY if dealing with pistols given that firearm pistols are prohibited.

If say my Crosman 2240 (once a pistol, always a pistol) was tuned to a heavy pellet, then I would literally get rid of the lighter ammo such as selling it cheap on this forum or giving it to a friend.

Alright thank you. Haven't done anything yet, still waiting on chrony.

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Province: Ontario
May all who are afraid of discourse find their rights trampled further.
Cowardice is never rewarded.

A gun legally sold in Canada as non PAL 495 or less is a non Pal gun until that gun is altered BUT. I have never read of a single case of a firearm being tested by any police service to determine the velocity for this purpose Until now http://www.cssa-cila.org/garryb/breitkreuzgpress/Guncontrol26.htm In a inline search I found this case in which the gun was never tested https://supremeadvocacy.ca/2019/10/15/is-a-pellet-gun-a-firearm-or-a-replica-firearm/ If you are plinking in the bush and a approached by a warden he would only concerned as to your activity. An avid air gunner would know the difference between 495fps and 750 fps but a power burner shooter may have a harder time. I know of no one that will tell difference between 495FPS and 532FPS

Robert

Most definitely. The RCMP can test guns, as they can to verify that a barrel attachment doesn't reduce the report of a gun. The ATF does this in the US. Usually this can occur as the result of an investigation, confiscation or claims made by a defendant. Worth going through all this for a pellet gun plinker? Probably not unless your pellet can penetrate 2 inches of plywood or makes a loud bang and you are "known" to the police. LOL.

The nightmare scenario for someone who plinks in a private area and gets a loudness complaint filed against them: Police shows up, officers tense after hearing that you might have a firearm, they check your license before arriving and realize you have none. They get worried you might be a dangerous fella. That creates barriers to effective communication to say the least.

You explain that your pistol is just a plinker and under 500fps. Next thing you know they are testing your .22 pistol with standard 14.3 gr pellets, the gun clocks at over 500 .. and you just became a criminal.

Ok. being a grown man that wants to (and must) stay on the right side of the law, I can stop worrying. Not importing, or making illegal mods, not making firearms, not discharging in inappropriate places ... etc

Feeling better about starting the little project then. Going to get my PP700 shooting .22s at near 500. Regulated. It's currently configured as .177 and doesn't do well with .22.

Thank you!

_________________
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Province: Ontario
May all who are afraid of discourse find their rights trampled further.
Cowardice is never rewarded.

That nasty scenario with the police could indeed happen.
In B.C., it is unlawful to be in possession of a firearm in a place where game inhabits, unless you are in possession of a valid hunting license.
This "law" is not listed in the yearly synopsis(couldn't find it), which as they say, is just a summary. It is up to the person "hunting", to know
what the laws pertaining to B.C. actually are and that is not easily available, afaik. The wildlife act will have to be perused. It is a HUGE book
with close to or over 1,000pages.
I was ordered to read the entire "tomb" as a young Cst. in Smither's B.C. I did, and remember this 'law' that was not written into the synopsis.
now, THAT law was in the "book" in 1972. Is it still there? I don't know. It's up to you to find out - if, you want to carry an air gun (ANY air gun)
"in a place where game inhabits". Also, it is illegal in BC to hunt with a handgun.(any handgun)
Now, according to what constitutes a Firearm:
"includes a device that propels a projectile by means of an explosion, compressed gas or spring and includes a rifle, shotgun, handgun, pellet gun, "BB"
gun or spring gun but does not include a bow."
Handgun: - "is a firearm that is designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand or that has a barrel length less than 305 .(12"}
on length."

There is no sub 500fps and 4.2fpe exemption in the wildlife act. ALL are considered firearms.

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Best Wishes
Daryl

Yep~ I agree to this too. That makes sense to me.

If that dramatic scenario happened, the officer should take the gun and the pelles the shooter used together at the scene and test this combination but not use their own pellet.

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~Plinkers~
FX-M3-22 Compact#PP700-Carbine#Diana48-177#XS28M-25@26fpe#HW45 Beast#AW-Custom Z-Killer DE
~Competitors~
FWB300SU#Tau-7#IZH-46M#FWB-65#CP88-C
~Target~
HW 30s/35e/97k/40+Extender/P3+Scope/70#CZ200s Laminated@10fpe#AA ProSport-177@12fpe

LOL~ Yeah~ That's so true!

I had been shooting for a few years before having my first chrony. I think I can tell the difference of a gun shooting at 300ish or 600ish up without a chrony... And the airgun 500fps vs the powder burners at 1000fps up too...

So all airguns (except those concrete breaking hyper power PCPs) actually all looks like toys to the real steel shooters. Those SSP, springers, co2, BB guns and non PAL guns all should be in this "toy" catalogue.

And ppl is very hard to tell the difference of the muzzle speed of a 450fps non PAL gun and a 700fps 12fpe PAL rated gun without the chrony.

Getting a chronograph device is just to let yourself can make sure your baby is legal and you can have peace in your mind to have fun with it without any pressure~

So don't be a clown and let ppl concerns your activities is a main point...

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~Plinkers~
FX-M3-22 Compact#PP700-Carbine#Diana48-177#XS28M-25@26fpe#HW45 Beast#AW-Custom Z-Killer DE
~Competitors~
FWB300SU#Tau-7#IZH-46M#FWB-65#CP88-C
~Target~
HW 30s/35e/97k/40+Extender/P3+Scope/70#CZ200s Laminated@10fpe#AA ProSport-177@12fpe

Irate what is your goal. Why do you want to up the PP700 to near 500FPS with 18g pellets.

Hunting?, longer distances?

What do you shoot and at what distance.

I find that the PP700 does well 20-30 yards with 15.89 at 470 ish. increasing it to near 500 with 18g would drop the shot count.

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Be The Pellet

Specifically, the goal is to swap the barrel of the .177 P700S-A to the .22 one and get that 15.89 pellet yours to 470 just like yours frankly. That would be great. The purpose? Simply to convert the ".177 paper puncher" level to "great performing .22" that can use a scope and long range targets because I have too many short range .177s. I understand the implication of the type of work this involves.

Also shedding the PP750 which currently fills the role of my .22 with a scope. The PP700S-A is to take its place, primarily as a pistol however. A rested target shooter.

Not hunting. Just ranged targets and the knowledge that the gun is operating very well.

_________________
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Province: Ontario
May all who are afraid of discourse find their rights trampled further.
Cowardice is never rewarded.

It appears to me that you are trying to achieve PAL power without owning a PAL.
You might get away with it with a rifle for the reasons mentioned above.
Breaking the barrier of velocity/energy in a pistol is a really bad idea.
That would create a restricted firearm. If you're caught with it, you're in big trouble. There are no new Restricted PALs (RPAL) issued any more. Only renewals. You can't obtain an RPAL so you can't own any restricted firearms, ever.
Get your PAL and stay legal.

Many of us have lathes, milling machines, etc. and know how to use them. There is an easy method to convert a lowly P17 pistol to a multi-pump pistol pushing over 600 fps. I have the tooling, raw materials and the necessary skill. Would I do it? Definitely not. Not worth it. However, I did make a modified adjustable piston for the P17 that allows the shooter to slow down the pistol to shoot quietly in an apartment. About 200 fps gives good accuracy and about half the cocking force. The pellets can even be reused since they don't deform! The custom piston only allows reducing the velocity. The max velocity of the gun remains unchanged regardless of how you adjust the piston.

Modifying air guns is an enjoyable part of airgun shooting sports. Keep asking your questions! Folks here are happy to help keep you on the right path.

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Theory is when you know how something works, but it doesn't.
Practice is when something works, but you don't know why.
In my shop, Theory and Practice are combined!
Nothing works and I don't know why.

Two lathes and too many projects

I get what you are saying, but not trying to achieve PAL levels. My PAL is on the way, and so are my firearms so I have no bratty boy in me that needs to break the law.

The goal is to get to "near PAL" levels with a PP700, which isn't allowed to get into PAL territory because it is a pistol. For the reasons you mentioned it is a bad idea to go beyond 500 especially for a pistol.

What I'm trying to achieve is getting that .177 barrel out of there, swapping to the .22 and ratcheting up the transfer of air to the pellet skirt so that it blows out of the front at 480, which is clearly, a NON-PAL power goal.

In Canada since we can't have firearm pistols, we must opt for low power pellet guns. There's nothing wrong with getting the max legal push out of your pellet pistol because these are literally the only pistols we can have. Might as well have some fun with them.

I want to blast some targets with a scope from rested position on private property with a relatively quiet, non-firearm. PAL level FPS are just too dangerous and loud for medium sized private properties and frankly reckless to use.

I own a sub500 .35 cal Kral Puncher BigHorn .. and despite being NON-PAL, it is WAYYY too loud for the type of private property we have around here despite only shooting at 420fps. It eats plywood for dinner.

So as with all things, we must be responsible adults and draw our own line in the sand as to what is acceptable or not on our property.

A sub500 .22 pistol shooting heavy pellets at metal targets from medium range falls in the 'acceptable' category for my specific situation based on discussion here on the forum.

You are correct though... chasing power for the sake of power is a terrible idea especially for pistols.

A PAL won't help you when they take you and your 800fps pistol (buh buh buh .. it has a carbine stock!!!) away and throw your arse in jail.

_________________
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Province: Ontario
May all who are afraid of discourse find their rights trampled further.
Cowardice is never rewarded.

My .22 PP700 S-A runs 408fps with 21.3gr. pellets. That's 7.88fpe and is quite accurate with that pellet. It's pellet on pellet at 10yards and under an inch at 20yards rest.
I see no need to make it faster with those pellets. I suspect an alloy pellet might break 500fps, but I have none and never will. This pistol really likes the 21.3gr. Match H&N.
That's the only thing I shoot in it.
I suspect the regulator could be adjusted to provide closer to 500fps with that pellet if adjusted that way. Since in BC I cannot use it for hunting, I do not see any reason to do that
nor even if it was legal to use it hunting.
For me, it is a winter indoor shooting pistol. I get 44 shots from a fill.

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Best Wishes
Daryl

21.3gr @ >400fps would be fine too. It clearly works for you! Any higher and you might get into o-ring wear, hammer spring tension wear (due to being so tight), low shot count, too loud ..etc etc.

With the .177 barrel right now it's shooting wadcutters at 460fps. Before doing anything to the gun, will swap barrels and check what the speed is on 14.3 gr .22 pellets and then go from there. Will establish a baseline to work from and then look at port hole sizes and hammer spring tension to ratchet up the speed.

Looks like its time to get an assortment of .22 pellet aside from the ubiquitous Crosman Hollow Points. Will start the tuning this weekend and will finish it off once the heavy pellets come in. Thanks Daryl.

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Province: Ontario
May all who are afraid of discourse find their rights trampled further.
Cowardice is never rewarded.