Canadian Airgun Forum

Had a .177 and a .22 for years and went to sight in the .22 today. I was using my tasco 3-9x and did my best to line things up. The pellet (crosman domed) will not keep consistency. I can hit a 20mm target from 20m maybe 2-3 times out of 16.

Trying to figure out if me, the scope, the gun or the pellets are the problem. Even tried resting it on a table and 0% consistency. Cheers!

J.

There are too many variables to say where your inconsistency is coming from so you'll have to use process of elimination.
A chrongraph would be helpful to see if muzzle speed is varying.
Scope may be buggered, does it work on your .177 Phantom?
Is there a firm stiff lock when you close the barrel, does the barrel break open easily and lock sloppily?
Did it shoot well with Crosman domed pellets before? Have you tried other pellets?

If this is a non-modded non-PAL Phantom .22 then 20mm at 20 yds may be normal.
Often these guns need some attention to shoot better, and 1/2" at 20 yds is achievable.

_________________

))))----//----------==
Iacio, ergo sum

Yes many variables
Are your scope mounts and rings torqued
Are your action screws tight
Is the barrel clean
Is the muzzle crown ok
Shooting from a sand bag?

Those triggers leave alot to desire

-Firm snap opening and closing. No play at the pivot.
-Scope is cranked tight mounts are tight.
-Bore has been scrubbed and wiped.
-Entire assembly striped and lubricated.
-Piston cup is good
-Crown is clean

I've been avoiding my preferred Excite wadcutters since I read only Diablo domed style are acceptable in FT.
The trigger definitely leaves something to be desired lol.

I will first check my fps for consistency, if it fails, try my wascutters. Failing that I will swap the scope to my 177 which went through the same cleaning yesterday.
The.22 has been tweaked as well, I can't leave anything alone.
I can just hear what's going off in your heads and it might not be an issue, feels taboo. I'm running 20mm Picatinny mounts on an 11mm dovetail. Hasn't moved in years from what I can tell.

J.

those are the most fun for challenges.
I do look forward to your findings.

could the scope be damaged?
looking in the objective end (backwards) in the scope, you can see things a little different, such as cracks in the glass

I do wonder a little now about the pic rail to dovetail. but if its tight, its tight.. so?

Oh if you're looking for a challenge I've found it [emoji1787].
-Chrony was between 613-630~
-Tried rws hobbies and the domed Crosmans (22)
-Locked er in my vice and took shots to dial the scope. Pidly 15ft to adjust windage/elev.
-25ft away in my hands, still inconstant, tried resting it on the table too. The recoil might not help.

I tried the scope on the 177 and got similar results(my 177 shoots 450~). Don't think I put in as much effort as I did with the 22 but I got frustrated and pulled out the Diana chaser. Slapped the scope on and was hitting within 2" at 26yd. Thanks to the rws pellets it was hitting about 520-530 ish fps

My findings.. it's just not an accurate model. More of a Canadian Tire special[emoji1743]. I'll still tinker with it though.
Dovetail mounts are on the way lol.

J.

The muzzle speed is not bad at all to me for such an entry level break barrel.

So! I believe the not as accurate as the co2 or other power plant rifles is because you didn't get used to shoot the springer (again) which has a recoils reaction rather than those recoiless guns? I think you have good memories on these two guns before right?

Because I know clamping a springer to shoot or zero the scope is the worst way to shoot a springer.

For the rediculous recoil from its power plant, you need to get used to it and don't hold it tight but let the gun to do what it wants to, no matter jumping or other things... Some times when you added the force on it which just ruining its own consistency...

Not really need to follow the said "artillery hold" but just hold it loosely not over tight and find a way both you and the gun feel comfortable and I believe you should get some accuracy~

I don't have a Phantom or even shoot one... But I know a shooting buddy once used a Plantom in the field target match and got good scores~

However I love the recoils from a springer very much and on my limited experience on them, like the monster pistol HW45, If I just provided the necessary essential support to the pistol and let the pistol rested in my hands then I can barely feel the recoils or dragging of the pistol and it is VERY accurate (not doing the same like the HW40 recoiless SSP tho)...

But when you hold it tight, while you pull the trigger, it just fighting back on you to counter the force and could drag the muzzle away to aside.... That's the difference of the holding....

_________________
~Plinkers~
FX-M3-22 Compact#PP700-Carbine#Diana48-177#XS28M-25@26fpe#HW45 Beast#AW-Custom Z-Killer DE
~Competitors~
FWB300SU#Tau-7#IZH-46M#FWB-65#CP88-C
~Target~
HW 30s/35e/97k/40+Extender/P3+Scope/70#CZ200s Laminated@10fpe#AA ProSport-177@12fpe

Hah yes I have fond memories with them, my first real airguns like a decade ago. Always been shooting in and off but I was considering trying it out for FT but getting used to the recoil after using co2 guns in a hurry might not make it.

I understand completely what your saying about the hold. I experienced just that, vice sight in was way off in my hands. I was able to correct it somewhat by readjusting out of the vice but the recoil control is everything. It's almost like you need to let it "float". I was holding it pretty firm against my shoulder though so I'll give er another go tomorrow afternoon. I'll tape a pillow to the stock [emoji23]

Oh yes I looked backwards through the scope and everything looked minty. Scope is bueno!

J.

Well, in reality that is not a really good group for that gun, assuming you have it set up with carbine stock - IMO a fair assumption if you are shooting it with a Tasco 3-9x rifle scope.
Is it an AO scope? if not parallax could be affecting your shot placement.
If the Phantom is "loose" then no amount of practice will make it group nicely. Here is where you have to separate the gun and the shooter. What was it/you capable of shooting when you were younger (-10 yrs)?
You need to be sure you have the proper consistent technique before blaming the gun.
If you can team up with another shooter who has experience, it could be a way to make a quick check to see where the oversize groups are coming from. By all means, even show up to a FT event and bring it, most likely many people would be happy to test it for you.

_________________

))))----//----------==
Iacio, ergo sum

Good suggestons, Duke.

_________________
Best Wishes
Daryl

Oh jeez [emoji23] welp I'd say my aim needs work then lol. Yeah carbine style, going to try my .177 as well [emoji51]. I can't remember how accurately I used to shoot with the phantom, it's been years. But I don't think I ever got it grouping toonies at any distance. I wouldn't mind someone else having a go, challenge for all lol.

I just watched a few videos on springers and techniques and I've definitely been doing a few things wrong. Looking forward to trying again tomorrow and see how she goes. Technique definitely needs work.

As for the scope it's tasco's rimfire series. The details say "50yd parallax setting". Again decades purchase lol.

I really appreciate all the help and advice from everyone, thank you.


Edit.. I just read about parallax [emoji51]. This might explain some things.

J.

I have written this before. It might help you understand why you're not hitting anything with a springer.
This is what happens when you pull the trigger on a springer:
Stage one: The piston, propelled by a horrendously powerful spring, accelerates down the compression tube, rapidly approaching warp speed. Like Newton said, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". The piston moving forwards causes the gun to move back into your shoulder. The gun is now in motion. The pellet has not moved (yet).
Stage two: The piston comes to a crashing, violent stop at the end of the compression stroke, compressing the air in the compression tube to approximately 3000 psi, throwing the gun violently forward, away from your shoulder. This movement, while the gun was already moving in the opposite direction, can create over 100 Gs of force on a scope for a few milliseconds. Every shot. No wonder high power springers are scope killers. It's also the reason springers vibrate screws loose.The pellet still hasn't moved. (yet).
Stage three: The compressed air pushes the pellet down the barrel, pushing the gun back into your shoulder again.
It's a wonder we hit anything with a springer.

Having said all that, I own and shoot two Phantoms. Both are heavily tuned. The .177 ( a Phantom without sights called a "Fury") is detuned to its sweet spot (8.18gr at 880 fps). Member Tcooper shot a .172" 5 shot group at 20 yards at an indoor range with it. (kind of embarrassing when somebody shoots your gun better than you do...). The .22 is similarly detuned (14gr at 660 fps) and almost as accurate. The .177 is the most accurate airgun I own in a stable of over 20 airguns.

Members have already posted excellent suggestions for tuning your gun. IMHO, the critical tuning areas for Chinese B18 rifles (Crosman Phantoms are Chinese B18s -but you probably already knew that) are the crown (it may look OK when it is not ok), the lockup (usually screwed up), and that God awful trigger which can be easily fixed to a single stage 1 kg trigger.
If they already possessed those attributes out of the box, the price would be double and no-one would buy them.
Go ahead and wrench your gun, get your hands dirty and have some fun with it. Lathe work is rarely needed. Hand tools and basic skills will suffice.

One more piece of the puzzle: if you sight in a springer from a bench rest, the point of impact will be vastly different than the poi with the same gun hand held. My springers are sighted in hand held since most of my shooting is off hand or resting body parts on deck railings, trees, etc. When I bench test them, the poi is way off, but unimportant when assessing the gun's performance.

Pumpers and PCPs shoot a lot like powder burners (easy to shoot). Those rock and roll springers are very different beasts.

_________________
Theory is when you know how something works, but it doesn't.
Practice is when something works, but you don't know why.
In my shop, Theory and Practice are combined!
Nothing works and I don't know why.

Two lathes and too many projects

Thanks~ That's a very informative reading! Thanks for posting that again as I must missed it last time you posted it~ I am still new to the hobby ~

I remember I did the same that clamping and fixing my HW30 (my first springer, also a break barrel too) to zero it a few years ago and I had no idea how this thing works at that time~ [emoji38]

Shooting springers are all about consistency... Not only the gun but also the shooter need to maintain the same holding, pose, support... every time you pull the trigger then you can just nail it~ if you couldn't duplicate the same every time try to seek a different pose something which could make you feel more comfortable and can easily duplicate.... So very important to not fighting the recoils, tame it not force it...

_________________
~Plinkers~
FX-M3-22 Compact#PP700-Carbine#Diana48-177#XS28M-25@26fpe#HW45 Beast#AW-Custom Z-Killer DE
~Competitors~
FWB300SU#Tau-7#IZH-46M#FWB-65#CP88-C
~Target~
HW 30s/35e/97k/40+Extender/P3+Scope/70#CZ200s Laminated@10fpe#AA ProSport-177@12fpe

Damn that's quite a bit of good info thank you for the lesson. Definately embarrassing [emoji23] like someone racing your car better than you. So if I'm looking at a targeting standpoint which should I be practicing with a 177 or 22? I know this is always a huge debate but I always figured 177 was better for targeting due to trajectory.

As for the scope I guess back in the day I figured an actual rifle scope would be less susceptible to the recoil. However years later I realize rimfire rifles have less recoil than this Phantom lol. It's a possibility but I think she's still hanging in there since I had better accuracy with co2.

It's that technique I'm missing for sure. I'm going to take some shots this afternoon and I'll post a few pics [emoji1360]

J.

The Crosman Phantom and Optimus (B18 line) can be very accurate when properly tuned. Some can have bad barrels with constrictions at the breech block or bad crowns or rifling. But if the bbl is reasonable they can often shoot an inch at 40 yards and a bit larger at 50. The 10m groups can often be 1/4” or smaller with the right pellets. I always find a 4.52mm H&N FTT or JSB Exact seem to perform best for long distance accuracy in my four B18 rifles.