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When is a 22XX not PAL rated?
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Author:  rsterne [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  When is a 22XX not PAL rated?

I have been asked by a Mod to comment on this because I personally went through this many years ago, when the Registration for Non-Restricted Firearms was still in place.... I had a few project guns that I wished to register, so contacted the CFC, and they requested photos and specifications, which I provided.... Two were based on 2250s, and two on 2289s.... All used the Crosman "skeleton" Carbine stock, and barrels from 14.5 - 24" long.... All four were initially denied registration unless I had an R-PAL (I didn't, only a PAL) but the negotiations went on for about a year while they did their research.... Arguments on my side on the 2250s were that Crosman was selling them in a 18" barreled Carbine version as a rifle, and that the 2289 was, of course a Carbine, and that all of them met the 26" minimum overall length....

Eventually the answer I got was that in all cases, the rule was "once a pistol, always a pistol", and the 2250 was originally a pistol, and described as such by Crosman, and the 2289 was a Carbine version of the 1377, and came with handgrips, so it was also considered a pistol.... I was told that they were not a problem if they remained under 500 fps, but above that I would need my RPAL.... I did different things with different ones.... One of the 2250s I modded below 500 fps, on CO2, so it was non-PAL.... The other I replaced the tube with one from a 2260 (a rifle) and a 14.5" barrel, and it became my PCP Grouse Gun.... The two pumpers got tubes from a 2100/2200, which was a rifle.... One became by Uber-Pumper (.177 with a 24" barrel), the other my Uber-Carbine (.22 with a 14.5" barrel), and all three of those were subsequently registered....

The definition of a pistol/handgun/restricted firearm is reasonably clear in the law, it is "designed or intended" to be fired with one hand.... Therefore, if you make a pistol from a rifle tube, that particular gun is now a pistol, and at least in theory, can never be made back into a rifle, although proving that it did or did not go through the pistol stage before returning to a rifle would be so difficult that prosecution, IMO, would be a joke.... However, there is a much bigger danger, and that is the possibility that if you shorten the barrel OF A FIREARM to under 18", or the length to under 26", it becomes a Prohibited Weapon.... The law seems quite clear about that.... Interestingly, two of my Carbines described above, with 14.5" barrels, were fully documented by the CFC and registered to me as non-Restricted Firearms, despite the fact that they started as rifles and now have 14.5" (Crosman) barrels.... The possibility of them being Prohibited never came up, but you can bet I have kept the Registration Certificates and my original emails and photos in case they are ever questioned....

Based on the above personal experience, I would recommend that if you have a rifle that is PAL rated that you leave the barrel over 18" and the LOA over 26", and then there should never be any question.... The recent Supreme Court Decision that non-PAL guns are Firearms likely makes that apply to rifles under 500 fps, but if the new Government Law passes, that could reverse again.... If you leave it a rifle (must be fired 2-handed, and over 26" long) but the barrel is less than 18" (like my two Carbines) a zealous Prosecutor could likely cause you a lot of grief for owning a Prohibited Weapon.... This may be a situation, for me, that the fact I registered them I have a special case.... or at the very least could argue such.... I think perhaps that since I built them as Custom Guns, from parts, I became the "manufacturer", so the Prohibited Status was never questioned.... I remember being told that using a custom tube (ie not from Crosman) was another alternative, and that they would then issue me a serial number.... With no registration procedure to back you up, I would recommend you leave the barrel over 18"....

If you don't agree with the above, that's fine, but don't shoot the messenger.... The process I went through, and what I did, is fact.... Whether you should do it now, IMO, would be rolling the dice.... Please note that there ARE non-Restricted Firearms available in Canada that have barrels less than 18" long, but they came that way from the manufacturer, and so they are not Prohibited Weapons under the law, even though if YOU made an identical one from a rifle, it would be.... I believe the same applies to BullPups.... Once again, Firearm Laws in Canada should be more properly titled "50 Shades of Grey".... :mrgreen:

Bob

Author:  lauchlin [ Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When is a 22XX not PAL rated?

From Bob

After some discussion with a member of the Forum who is much more knowledgeable than I am, I would like to add the following to the above.... We are in complete agreement over the 2240 and 2250, they are and will remain handguns, regardless of additional barrel length or added stock.... We are also in agreement that SHORTENING the 24" barrel on a 2260 (or Disco) to less than 18" will make it a Prohibited Firearm.... Shorten it to 18.1" or longer, or replace it with a barrel of that length, it remains non-Restricted.... We also agree that this would apply to non-Crosman barrels.... If it starts off over 18" and ends up under 18", you have creasted a Prohibited Firearm.... We also agree that any time you shorten a rifle or shotgun to less than 26" overall, it becomes a Prohibited Firearm....

Where Timberwolf and I disagree, or are unsure, is what happens if you REPLACE the 24" barrel with another barrel, Crosman or other, that is already under 18" as produced by the barrel maker.... He says it's OK, and cites many examples.... I'm not so sure, so I'm not willing to stick my neck out and tell you guys to do it, because I simply don't know.... I feel that the law can be read both ways, which probably means it comes down to precedent, and Timberwolf is probably correct.... but I can't recommend it in all good conscience.... IF it is OK to fit a barrel that starts out at under 18", THEN it is probably also OK to shorten that barrel further, because you are not causing the barrel to go below that threshold, it already was.... This would, IMO, allow you to recrown a sub-18" barrel, or even shorten it further, providing you stay over the 26" LOA....

In summary, if you leave the barrel on a 2260 (or Disco) over 18" and the LOA is over 26", it should remain non-Restricted.... If you shorten the LOA to less than 26", it will become a Prohibited Firearm.... If you shorten a barrel that starts out over 18" to less than 18", it will also become Prohibited.... If you fit a barrel that arrived from the manufacturer at less than 18", you MAY be OK, provided the LOA is over 26".... Which of those 50 Shades of Grey do you think it is?....

If you build a handgun (intended to be used with one hand) and it is over 500 fps, using a 2260 tube, it will at least be Restricted and require an RPAL, but subject to the interpretation, as above, could be Prohibited.... Since you would have to register it, that would be sorted out during that process.... If they register it as Restricted, then it would be difficult to come back later and rule that it was Prohibited.... Your Registration Certificate should be all the proof you need....

Bob

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