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Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
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Author:  bigHUN [ Thu Mar 21, 2024 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
When I am tuning for accuracy I am shooting @50 or 100 meters.
5x5 rings 5 shot groups and documenting the group shape.
Shorter then 50 something like 20 or 30 meters I don't like, it doesn't "read" clearly.
But that is just me...
Author:  A.D.D. [ Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
McRobert wrote:
A Minute of Angle is just over 1" at 100 yards at 25 yards it is only .261".
How can you measure .375 of an MOA at 25 yards. That is less than 3 mm

Robert


Hi Robert. I'm measuring these 50 shot groups using OnTarget software. I shoot 50 consecutive targets on a single sheet, scan it into OnTarget, and then it takes me between 5-10 minutes to map the targets and impacts on the scan. The software then aggregates the series into a single 50 shot group and gives me a bunch of stats, including SD. OnTarget claims to be able to automatically map the targets and impacts for you if you are using a print out of one the target files they provide, but I have never got results with this that saved me time. If you want to test for small changes to precision - like determining whether cleaning your barrel has an impact - being able to easily aggregate 50 shot groups is invaluable.

BTW - I have not yet detected an increase in precision by cleaning my barrel.
Author:  A.D.D. [ Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
PL00 wrote:
In the powder burning world. Bull Barrels or thick barrels help in a few ways.

The deal with heat generated when firing better. Not an issue with airguns.
They reduce recoil a bit. That would be a benefit with springers.
They are stiffer, reduce vibration. That would help.

Loosing the accuracy of a LW choked barrel by replacing it with a thick barrel might be a step down. If you really want a thick barrel you might think of having a thick metal sleeve made to slip over the LW barrel. Giving you the added thickness while retaining the LW choked advantage


Agreed that the first two are not factors with PCPs. With my air rifle I think there is far more rifle movement from the hammer impact than from recoil. Stiffness is one of the two ways that a longer stiffer barrel might contribute to increased precision. In precision 22lr their seems to be a current trend to use 22' or 24' inch barrels, even though you max out velocity with a barrel under 20". The extra length has been found to even out velocity. There is a lot that is different between a 22lr and .22 air rifle, so may be no benefit there. But I'm curious. My air rifle typically has an SD less than 3 fps over 50 shots, so any improvement will be incremental at best.
Author:  A.D.D. [ Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
Doc Sharptail wrote:
Not all L/W bbls are choked, and until the O/P identifies what he has, this discussion is actually sort of pointless.

The L/W bbls that are choked can be a bit fussy when it comes to pellets. If the O/P's L/W bbl is choked, moving to a high quality competition grade wad cutter pellet will work wonders.

-D.S.


I've re-thought my commitment to keeping the make of my air rifle out of this as it makes the discussion awkward. So please, if I am being unfair in wanting better precision than .45 MOA at 25 yards from my rifle please let me know. I've got an Air Arms S510 XS in .22 cal. It has a choked LW barrel. I've tested every type of .22 pellet I could get my hands on. After thousands of pellets shot in testing (loving every second), I can confirm that it prefers the Air Arms pellets it was designed for. The 16gr and 18gr Air Arms shoot so close that they are virtually indistinguishable. If I remember right it is shooting the 16gr around 910 fps and the 18's around 880 fps. The JSB Jumbos and H&N Baracudas also shoot well in those weights. I've tried a whole bunch of light weight slugs and none of them shoot, as expected. I have never considered shooting wad cutters. Can they make the leap from 10m to 25 yards? I was going to say that I don't recall seeing any, but I'm on the AGS website staring at them so there you go. A new pellet to test! Thank you for the suggestion.
Author:  A.D.D. [ Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
PL00 wrote:
A.D.D. wrote:
I shoot 50 shot groups (using OnTarget) that have a standard deviation of between .375 and .45 MOA at 25 yards with wind under <1mph. I know this isn't awful performance, but shouldn't a high end air rifle be able to put all shots within an MOA at 25 yards when wind is minimal to none?


You are within 1 MOA, your less than 1/2 MOA.

What gun and what velocity are you shooting. A detuned sub 500FPS high end gun can be blown away by a high velocity gun costing much less.

A thicker, longer barrel may help. It does in the powder burning world. But there may be other cheaper, easier options. Like maybe a regulator, or a change in pellet.

Tell us what you are shooting. Gun, pellet, velocities (Chrono data). You may get some helpful suggestions


Air Arms S510Xs, shooting 16gr pellets at 910 fps or 18gr pellets at 880 fps. My rifle prefers the Air Arms pellets at those weights. JBS and H&N also do well at those weights, so I don't my rifle is fussy. I've tested a wide variety of pellets and weights. Anything over 18gr has not performed well. I have FX pellets to test when I get out next, and Doc Sharptail suggests I try wadcutters. But I'm not expecting anything dramatic.
Author:  A.D.D. [ Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
Daryl wrote:
I guess we have to assume the OP is using the most accurate pellet for THAT particular barrel.
Producing 1/4" MOA groups at 25 yards for a 50 shot group is quite amazing, imho.
Or - is that 10, 5 shot groups? 5, 10 shot groups is not a 50 shot group, not even close.
I have 3 PCP's that shoot 1/2" at 55yards. That's a little better than 1 MOA - for 5 shot groups.
I'm happy with that. It was a switchy wind that day, but I did not have wind flags out.
One is a Lothar-Walther barrel, on the Condor. One was an Aselkon MX9 and the other is an FX Dreamline, all .25 cal.
1st and 3rd shooting JSB Hades pellets and the Aselkon likes the JSB 33.95 gr. Exact.
I have one springer that shoots 1/2MOA at 20yards. That's 1/10", 5-shot groups. Those 3 PCP's do better than that
for 5 shots, but not for 10, let alone 50 consecutive shots on the same target. That would be an endurance test of
the shooter, not an accuracy test of the rifle.
A rifle accuracy TEST of that many shots, would be more accurate if you used 17, 3-shot groups all averaging 1/10",
not 10, 5-shot groups and especially a single 50 shot group.


If a rifle has an SD of .45 MOA:

68% of shots will fall within .9 MOA
95% of shots will fall within 1.8 MOA
99.7% of shots will fall within 2.7 MOA

Note that I am not shooing a single 50 shot group (with the point of aim obliterated). I'm shooing 50 1-shot groups, and aggregating them into a single group using software. I only measure groups I shoot when the wind is almost zero. If there are even light gusts I've found that precision goes to hell with pellets, even at 25 yards.
Author:  A.D.D. [ Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
bigHUN wrote:
When I am tuning for accuracy I am shooting @50 or 100 meters.
5x5 rings 5 shot groups and documenting the group shape.
Shorter then 50 something like 20 or 30 meters I don't like, it doesn't "read" clearly.
But that is just me...


The reason I've done all my testing at 25 yards is that I'm shooing outdoors and want to eliminate the effect of wind as much as possible. Even at this close range I find a noticeable impact on precision from winds as low as 1-3mph.
Author:  Doc Sharptail [ Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
A.D.D. wrote:
Doc Sharptail wrote:
Not all L/W bbls are choked, and until the O/P identifies what he has, this discussion is actually sort of pointless.

The L/W bbls that are choked can be a bit fussy when it comes to pellets. If the O/P's L/W bbl is choked, moving to a high quality competition grade wad cutter pellet will work wonders.

-D.S.


I've re-thought my commitment to keeping the make of my air rifle out of this as it makes the discussion awkward. So please, if I am being unfair in wanting better precision than .45 MOA at 25 yards from my rifle please let me know. I've got an Air Arms S510 XS in .22 cal. It has a choked LW barrel. I've tested every type of .22 pellet I could get my hands on. After thousands of pellets shot in testing (loving every second), I can confirm that it prefers the Air Arms pellets it was designed for. The 16gr and 18gr Air Arms shoot so close that they are virtually indistinguishable. If I remember right it is shooting the 16gr around 910 fps and the 18's around 880 fps. The JSB Jumbos and H&N Baracudas also shoot well in those weights. I've tried a whole bunch of light weight slugs and none of them shoot, as expected. I have never considered shooting wad cutters. Can they make the leap from 10m to 25 yards? I was going to say that I don't recall seeing any, but I'm on the AGS website staring at them so there you go. A new pellet to test! Thank you for the suggestion.


The 16 gr A/A pellets that I've shot are quite good- in fact they are re-branded JSB's. In my absolutely different and slower chinese power plant (Seneca pumper) The 18 gr JSB actually hold the edge at roughly 640 fps.

If you can find them, there's a heavy Meister wad-cutter in .22. I haven't worked much up with them, and the tin is still mostly full. I doubt they'd improve much over .45 minute at 25 yards, especially if there's even a hint of wind. I'll have to dig for those wad-cutters and take a photo. IIRC, they flattened out considerably by backing off to about 550 fps. I was suitably impressed enough with them that I didn't want to waste them on plinking.
Good luck with the search!

-D.S.
Author:  McRobert [ Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
Quote:
Hi Robert. I'm measuring these 50 shot groups using OnTarget software. I shoot 50 consecutive targets on a single sheet, scan it into OnTarget, and then it takes me between 5-10 minutes to map the targets and impacts on the scan. The software then aggregates the series into a single 50 shot group and gives me a bunch of stats, including SD. OnTarget claims to be able to automatically map the targets and impacts for you if you are using a print out of one the target files they provide, but I have never got results with this that saved me time. If you want to test for small changes to precision - like determining whether cleaning your barrel has an impact - being able to easily aggregate 50 shot groups is invaluable.

BTW - I have not yet detected an increase in precision by cleaning my barrel.


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ADD, I used a target software about 2 years ago where I would take a picture with my phone then move an arrow to the known dimension. Sticking my finger over a group of 5 or 10 is so much faster about 1 second. When I go to the range it is under any conditions. I site a gun in at 25 yards then move to the 50 yard range where I will shoots groups of 5 with up to 15 different pellets with a new gun. I have shot some pellets at 100 yards but it is mostly slugs at that distance. The ones that group less than a dime get an "A" and the ones that are less than a looney get a "B" all others get a "D". This is kept on the gun score card. I then wait for a sale and buy 5000 of the "A" or "B". In .177 I have 28 test tins, 17 tins in .22 and only slugs above .25. I sold all my test pellets in .25 to a member at CAF. Knowing the affects of wind is of great importance for me, as a majority of my targets have legs and move.

I have for more than a year polished barrels on 2 guns to the point that I have altered the force of a pellet push. They are both Crosman guns, the only way to describe the original push was to compare it to gravel. I can now push a pellet down the barrels with only a few minor hangs. I use a bras screw to polish the crowns. With one of the barrels it had a fake choke that was developed from the threading process. On that barrel I cut off the the thread section and used the heat shrink method to produce a new choke. I am now happy with both of these guns.

A good shooter, which I do not consider my self to be would most likely have better results with my guns. I use scopes that are powerful enough to see my heart beat deflection at 50m I also have digital scopes that can record the affects of a hard trigger pull. On my daily rat gun I have my trigger pull down to 6-8 ounces as it is hard to get a reading that lite. The trigger pull on my new Norica is 4 lbs for me that is a major problem.
Author:  YepYep [ Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
Hi ADD,

If talking about 22cal, and you didn't try wadcutter before... I agreed that you can give it a try~

There are just too many factors make a barrel/rifle like or hate a pellet... So You couldn't know before you try... It's just a few 22cal wadcutters in the markets, much less than other types... But only two you might want to try I think... One is the RWS Meisterkugeln and the other is the H&N Sport. Surely you can skip those Grizzly or Snowpeak things for this add on testing.... :)

My HW35E has an old school style barrel and she likes the H&N Sport much better than all other any types and weights pellets I tried... It's not as powerful as you AA-510 and it's a Springer.

I bet you already tried Hades, right? My mid power M3 shoots it very well at 860fps.
Author:  Daryl [ Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
McRobert wrote:
A Minute of Angle is just over 1" at 100 yards at 25 yards it is only .261".
How can you measure .375 of an MOA at 25 yards. That is less than 3 mm
Robert


Just wondering if the OP is talking about shooting .45" groups at 25 yards, or shooting .45 MOA at 25 yards?
Seems to me, a minute of angle is 1.036"in dia.
So 1 MOA group at 25 yards, would be 1.036 divided by 4 = .259"
So, a group of .375MOA at 25 yards, would measure .259" x .375 = .097" centre to centre.
Conversely, a .45MOA group would be .259" x .45 = .1165", or .117", centre to centre.

Now, I do have an HW97 in .177 that has put 5 into .119" at 20 yards which is just over .5MOA at that range. I have not tried it at 25 yards, however was able to shoot a .256" 5-shot group at 33yards, with the HW97 in .22, using Hades pellets.
The accuracy I am getting with these 2 springers at these ranges, is about as good as I get from my .25 cal. PCP air rifles.
Those do better at longer ranges, of course.
Author:  McRobert [ Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
Daryl, when I did my calcs I just took the Tan of one minute and multiplied by 3600
to get 1.047" as one Moa. Whether 1 Moa is 1.047" or 1.036" .375 Moa is tinny at 25 yards. I have went back to read that his .375 Moa to .45 MOA is a standard deviation calculation from the On Target software.

Robert
Author:  Daryl [ Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting air gun barrel blanks in Canada
There ya go, my bad. Sometimes it is good to nit-pick. :lol:
Therefore, .375MOA would be .10" C to c = 2.54mm according to the app on my phone.
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