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Disgustingly Dangerous Mods
https://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic54322-15.html
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Author:  rsterne [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

I agree, and who would have thought about somebody disabling a burst disc?.... or recommend that somebody purchasing used equipment pull them to check?.... You make something "idiot proof" and along comes a better idiot!....

Bob

Author:  Knappr [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

For who is certified to write such a sticky, that I'm not sure. Hopefully some of the most experienced HPA hobbiest could put their heads together and come up with a basic guide line. I'm not trying to pressure anyone but it just a matter of time before someone does something so dangerous that it hits the headlines. I just don't like giving the antis any fuel to fight us with!

Author:  lauchlin [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

rsterne wrote:
I agree, and who would have thought about somebody disabling a burst disc?.... or recommend that somebody purchasing used equipment pull them to check?.... You make something "idiot proof" and along comes a better idiot!....

Bob

I would be interested to know why any one would disable a safety devise or did they know it was a safety devise .I believe knowingly disabling a safety devise is illegal on a high pressure apparatus or devise.........

Author:  lauchlin [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

Knappr wrote:
For who is certified to write such a sticky, that I'm not sure. Hopefully some of the most experienced HPA hobbiest could put their heads together and come up with a basic guide line. I'm not trying to pressure anyone but it just a matter of time before someone does something so dangerous that it hits the headlines. I just don't like giving the antis any fuel to fight us with!



Quote:
hobbiest


But that's it in a nut shell there not qualified to give advise ..............

Author:  Knappr [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

Agreed lauchlin! If you give advise and put your name on it, then the law may make that person responsible for an negative reaction.

Author:  Whitewolf [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

lauchlin wrote:
Knappr wrote:
For who is certified to write such a sticky, that I'm not sure. Hopefully some of the most experienced HPA hobbiest could put their heads together and come up with a basic guide line. I'm not trying to pressure anyone but it just a matter of time before someone does something so dangerous that it hits the headlines. I just don't like giving the antis any fuel to fight us with!



Quote:
hobbiest


But that's it in a nut shell there not qualified to give advise ..............


With my job I pressure test upon every component to be used with in the job program, its the law as per ERCB. But none of my components within the job are DOT or CT certified. Pressure cylinders of this nature are a whole different licienceing by the governing bodies of CT, DOT, ANSI, and ISO. I may have a better working knowledge with pressures and testing properly, but in no way am I qualified. Look at the BP blow out in the Gulf. All members upon that drilling platform were trained in proper well control component testing, a better idiot took a short cut.

Disableing of any safety device, upon pressurized vessels is a criminal offence. But the sale of such item or items, just goes to show the level of responcibilty that a person has. They don't, and have a reckless nature, with out concquence. No value for their own safety never mind someone elses.

As for a sticky, maybe a direction to these topics would be better for educational purposes. Otherwise its that of an engineer who's willing to accept the responcibility to write a proceedure. But doesn't that come with the gun :!: AS PER MANUFACTURES RECOMMENDED PRACTICES OR MANUFACTURES SPECIFICATIONS :?:

Author:  lauchlin [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

Whitewolf wrote:
lauchlin wrote:
Knappr wrote:
For who is certified to write such a sticky, that I'm not sure. Hopefully some of the most experienced HPA hobbiest could put their heads together and come up with a basic guide line. I'm not trying to pressure anyone but it just a matter of time before someone does something so dangerous that it hits the headlines. I just don't like giving the antis any fuel to fight us with!



Quote:
hobbiest


But that's it in a nut shell there not qualified to give advise ..............


With my job I pressure test upon every component to be used with in the job program, its the law as per ERCB. But none of my components within the job are DOT or CT certified. Pressure cylinders of this nature are a whole different licienceing by the governing bodies of CT, DOT, ANSI, and ISO. I may have a better working knowledge with pressures and testing properly, but in no way am I qualified. Look at the BP blow out in the Gulf. All members upon that drilling platform were trained in proper well control component testing, a better idiot took a short cut.

Disableing of any safety device, upon pressurized vessels is a criminal offence. But the sale of such item or items, just goes to show the level of responcibilty that a person has. They don't, and have a reckless nature, with out concquence. No value for their own safety never mind someone elses.

As for a sticky, maybe a direction to these topics would be better for educational purposes. Otherwise its that of an engineer who's willing to accept the responcibility to write a proceedure. But doesn't that come with the gun :!: AS PER MANUFACTURES RECOMMENDED PRACTICES OR MANUFACTURES SPECIFICATIONS :?:


I would think the individual is probably not aware of what he or she did .......

Author:  notec [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

I would still like to know the seller in this case............I dont want to buy a grenade

Author:  blade57 [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

rsterne wrote:
I You make something "idiot proof" and along comes a better idiot!....

Bob


Bob, Can I use this as my Signature, please. I love it.

It seems to me that there are 3 problems with the essence of the OP.

1) The seller did something fundamentally stupid and extremely dangerous.

2) The seller failed to disclose the full extent of the mods.

3) When questioned about the mods, the seller totally ignored the sellers enquiries thus denying any liability.

Maybe a Sticky should be posted in the FOR SALE section regarding "FULL DISCLOSURE OF ANY MODS". I'm not even sure this would work as it would rely on "SELLER INTEGRITY". Something that seems to be sadly lacking in this case.

DaveD :D

Author:  blade57 [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

notec wrote:
I would still like to know the seller in this case............I dont want to buy a grenade


I haven't seen anything in the Feedback Section. Why has the buyer not posted :?: :?: :?:

I thought that was the whole point of the Buyer/Seller Feedback Section, to talk about The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and possibly even keep others safe.

DaveD :D

Author:  Mac [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

blade57 wrote:
notec wrote:
I would still like to know the seller in this case............I dont want to buy a grenade


I haven't seen anything in the Feedback Section. Why has the buyer not posted :?: :?: :?:

I thought that was the whole point of the Buyer/Seller Feedback Section, to talk about The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and possibly even keep others safe.

DaveD :D

Now you are starting to see one of the real problems. Indeed, why wouldn't a person openly criticize someone on this forum in the feedback area? Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Author:  rsterne [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

blade57... I think the proper quote is:

Quote:
Build something to be "idiot proof" and they just build a higher class idiot....

I didn't invent it, so as far as I'm concerned you're welcome to it....

Bob

Author:  Chewy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

We are all essentially responsible for ourselves.

BUT, saving a fellow enthusiast from wasting a great deal of money, or, worse, causing personal injury is simply an act of kindness and will only strengthen the community that is being built here.

This is what I am thinking. Those who can help - especially when it's nothing more than typing a few sentences on a forum, but don't are just as bad.

We not only need to protect our own interests, but those of the people who share in the same ones we have. If some HPA part causes serious injury it will open the doors to invite the possibility of more legislation that can harm our enjoyment. We need to keep these people out of our hobby!

We can legally and safely enjoy this rewarding sport together.

I hope this mess gets sorted out.

Author:  walrus [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

Knappr wrote:
We definitely need to educate! If injuries start to happen at significant numbers, the government will get involved and make serious changes to this great recreational activity. Those who know better have a duty to teach those who know little to nothing, to protect ourselves from regulation. Agree or disagree to this, but if the powers above step in its going to get messy.

If we put stickys up under "HPA Handling and Safety" and new and old members decide not to take a minute to read them, at least as member of this great forum we have done our duediligunse. We can only help those who are interested in knowledge, for those who aren't we can hope for the best.



It's easy for us to advocate safety first at all times and for us to guide the unknowing.But who is going to keep all the inbred goons from making You Tube vids of seriously stupid builds.These are viewed all over the globe by naive youngsters for one thing.And seriously brain damaged throwbacks for another :shock: among the very good instructional vids on there.We get some some very scary ideas thrown up.Guys who never even heard of pressure testing will put everyone at risk with stunts like this.For Gods sake plugging a burst disc instead of checking the disc springs and O rings smacks of sheer ignorance in the basics.I mean they have taken all the effort to thread the hole then plug it with a set screw,when it would have been just as quick to sort the regulator :shock: Another candidate for the Darwin Award I think.
Graham.

Author:  rsterne [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disgustingly Dangerous Mods

On another Forum, I recently ran across a guy using a CO2 tank at 3000 psi.... His reasoning was that the burst disc fitted was a 3K (which is the hydrotest pressure for CO2, 5/3 x 1800 psi MSWP).... plus he did some calculations that showed he had a 50% safety margin (but used a guess for the steel in the tank).... The regulator he fitted had a 5K burst disc (after all, a 3K one would blow, right?).... After posting the appropriate safety warning that this in NOT a safe practice, the thread was locked.... This was because he kept arguing that what he was doing was OK.... If you are using calculations, the safety margin should be at least 3:1 on a pressure vessel, and 4:1 is better.... Only if the tank is hydrotested to 5/3 of it's rated pressure is it safe to use that safety margin (eg. a 5K burst disc on a 3K tank)....

It's bad enough when somebody does something silly.... it's unforgiveable, IMO, to continue to argue the point after the safety implications have been established....

Bob

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