Canadian Airgun Forum
https://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/

How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install
https://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic61288.html
Page 1 of 1

Author:  Roussfam [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

Just posted this in another thread I had going, but thought I would give it it's own thread and title. Easier to find...

After I had taken the bolt out of the barrel/compression tube pivot, and removed the trigger/safety assembly, I found I could get the stock spring to move by pressing on the end with my thumb. So I put it in the vice as shown, pushed against the compression tube and the two retaining pins slid out easily, not much pressure.

BUT

When I reassembled with the Vortek PG2 Kit the spring was a lot stiffer and took more effort. It took all I had to get the holes to line up, but they were still just a bit off, I couldn't get the first pin in. Trying to line it up/rotate it and keep pressure on it was a bit much, a recipe for injury so I grabbed a drill bit that was a smaller diameter than the pins, pushed again and slid the drill bit in. Now the spring was compressed and couldn't fly out. Then I only had to push a bit to line up the holes perfectly and insert one pin, remove the drill bit and insert the other pin. Actually was a piece of cake. I was all freaked out about hearing I needed a spring compressor and I searched the net and looked at home made set ups. I'm glad I didn't waste time making one in advance.

Jim

Attachments:
Vice.JPG
Vice.JPG [ 331.1 KiB | Viewed 1009 times ]

Author:  Chevota [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

I do all my guns by hand as well, but I put the end against the floor and use my body weight on the breech end, or if the barrel is installed I simply put it at 90 degrees. Piece of cake ;)
I too use something smaller in the pin hole for guns that are harder to compress, like nitros, so it will align. I also often chamfer the internal part so the pin guides in better, and sand both the pin and internal hole if it's not a good fit. A Crosman nitro is a good example for that with it's one big pin going thru a steel block inside.
Some guns like Ruger or maybe it was Hatsan, or both, the internal block is plastic and an extremely tight fit. A little sanding and lube does the trick.
Here are some home made jobs:
http://www.airgunone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5836
including plans I drew for someone which is the stick photoshop drawing under my screen name. If anyone has tried it they haven't told me, but I'm curious to hear. I think it's ideal for it's simplicity, low cost, and I believe it would be 10X or more faster than the normal ones.

So, any comments on the performance after the kit? I've been considering the vortek spring for my 350, just the spring tho. Seems the 350 and Ruger mag are underpowered for their size so I've heard really benefit. I do like the easy cocking of mine, 32lbs with the oem spring, but would trade for 40lbs if the power went up to say 28ftlbs. So if you have details like that I'd like to hear, but your overall opinion too.

Author:  Roussfam [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

Well I never did fire the Black Hawk or cock it stock but....I have a piece of 2 x 10 in the garage which is full of dimples from 495fps pistols, I think it's Fir. Now the pellets bury themselves so deep I can't see them.

Hits pretty hard and it's a bit loud.

Jim

Author:  Chevota [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

Usually I test the gun first before I modify it to be sure it's not defective, and for a before/after comparo, but sometimes I tear into them first thing too. Oh well.
Did you look the insides over, like take the piston out or anything? Usually cheaper guns need a new main seal because the orig is damaged/cut during factory install. Also many/most have seals that aren't ideal, either poor design and/or poor materials so it's good to replace it.
For some reason I was thinking you had a Ruger mag, but I see it's a Blackhawk. The mags have a picatinny rail which they weld on and the welding has ruined plenty of guns. The weld leaves unfilled pockets inside which break the seal. The first one I saw let the air leak out for the first inch or so of travel so a lot of that air was lost, as a result it was lower powered than the standard gun. Unfortunately many people don't know it because they have no way to test power.
It's hard to estimate power without a crony, but one way is to shoot lighter and lighter pellets until you hear the super sonic crack. Like shaving weight off the head of a light pellet and using a jeweler scale or powder scale to weigh them. Somewhere between 6 and 7gr it should go ss, then calculate the pellet weight to the speed of sound where you shot. Just a thought...

Author:  Roussfam [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

Chevota wrote:
Usually I test the gun first before I modify it to be sure it's not defective, and for a before/after comparo, but sometimes I tear into them first thing too. Oh well.
Did you look the insides over, like take the piston out or anything? Usually cheaper guns need a new main seal because the orig is damaged/cut during factory install. Also many/most have seals that aren't ideal, either poor design and/or poor materials so it's good to replace it.
For some reason I was thinking you had a Ruger mag, but I see it's a Blackhawk. The mags have a picatinny rail which they weld on and the welding has ruined plenty of guns. The weld leaves unfilled pockets inside which break the seal. The first one I saw let the air leak out for the first inch or so of travel so a lot of that air was lost, as a result it was lower powered than the standard gun. Unfortunately many people don't know it because they have no way to test power.
It's hard to estimate power without a crony, but one way is to shoot lighter and lighter pellets until you hear the super sonic crack. Like shaving weight off the head of a light pellet and using a jeweler scale or powder scale to weigh them. Somewhere between 6 and 7gr it should go ss, then calculate the pellet weight to the speed of sound where you shot. Just a thought...


Yes I pulled the piston. I used some emery cloth to smooth any rough edges in the tube. Obviously the factory seal went in during initial assembly and came out when I disassembled everything. Since the Vortek kit was for a Diana 34, the piston seal it came with did not fit so I had to reassemble with the original. I wish I would have known, I would have ordered one. It wouldn't take much to add that note to the kit fitment description on the website. I wasn't too impressed with this lack of advance notice. The edges of the piston seal had a few small nicks around the lip, but it seems to be fine.

Jim

Jim

Author:  Chevota [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

The 34 seal is supposed to fit, how/why didn't it? Diameter? Mount? I'm thinking they sent you the wrong seal......

Sometimes the wrong seal still fits. My Benj XL has the "wrong" seal which was bought for something else that uses a different mount, but it fits anyway. I always change the seal that comes with the gun because they're almost always trashed from a lazy install and poor gun quality. The oem Ruger seals (that came in the gun) that I've seen were in terrible shape, probably the worst I've ever seen so I think it's important you change it.
The reason I used a different seal in my XL, which I think is for a Walther Talon, is because the oem XL seal is a poor design, and it looks like aftermarket seals for it have the same problem. The better design makes more power and is less abusive on the scope. I plan on buying one to see if it'll fit my 350, but the bore is supposed to be 1mm different so I dunno. If it does fit I'll let you know. Whatever the case I'd be sure the seal you have doesn't fit, then I'd call Vortek and see wth... For $80 you should get a new seal and a reach around.

Author:  Roussfam [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

Hole in Vortek seal was too small.

Author:  Chevota [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

It's tapered so it can appear the seal won't fit. Here's a pix of some Crosman seals which I imagine is basically what you saw? On the bottom is two new seals, bottom left facing up, bottom right facing down, and the one on the piston is used. To install you pry the old off with a screwdriver, then use one or even two small screwdrivers to pry the new seal on just like a tire with tire irons, assuming you've done that. A little grease helps a lot. I always sand down the sharp edge of the attachment point, which resembles a dovetail. That sharp point makes it literally 10 times harder to install the seal so I round that edge as you can see in the pix. Reducing the OD by .005 to .010" should be fine. The one in the pix is probably closer to .020" and too much. I use a Dremel to do the work and to sand the edge smooth and rounded. Since the edge of this one is overdone I can install the seal with my thumb in a second, the problem is the more metal you remove the more dead air space there is, similar to a car engine and it's compression ratio. The higher compression ratio you have in the gun the more power it makes and is less abusive to your scope. I mod my seals by sanding them thinner to increase stroke, compression, and reduce friction. More on that if you're interested...

Attachments:
Seals.JPG
Seals.JPG [ 30.13 KiB | Viewed 801 times ]
Dove.JPG
Dove.JPG [ 14.93 KiB | Viewed 801 times ]

Author:  Roussfam [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

The seal I got along with two large diameter O-rings was red and flat as a pancake...I've attached a pic from the Vortek site

Attachments:
Diana Oring 28-120x120.jpg
Diana Oring 28-120x120.jpg [ 3.86 KiB | Viewed 793 times ]

Author:  Chevota [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

Oic... If you order the RWS kit it has the option for an O-ring seal when you place the order, but a Ruger isn't precision enough to use them so not an option. Now if the hole is too small then apparently it's both the wrong type and wrong gun. I'm sure if you tell them they'll send the correct seal.
If/when you get the correct seal you might consider doing a little tuning while you're in there. I made a tuning guide that describes it in detail, including pix. Things like sanding the face of the seal down, piston buttons, transfer port work, breech work, scope mods, lube info, lots of stuff... If you want it write me at chevota@hotmail and I'll send it to you. Not only will it make more power when done, but smoother and easier cocking, smoother shooting, better accuracy, less scope abuse, and much longer gun life.

Author:  Roussfam [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

I'll give it a shot and send them an email...

Jim

Author:  Roussfam [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How I compressed my spring--Tune Up Kit Install

Chevota wrote:
If/when you get the correct seal you might consider doing a little tuning while you're in there. I made a tuning guide that describes it in detail, including pix. Things like sanding the face of the seal down, piston buttons, transfer port work, breech work, scope mods, lube info, lots of stuff... If you want it write me at chevota@hotmail and I'll send it to you. Not only will it make more power when done, but smoother and easier cocking, smoother shooting, better accuracy, less scope abuse, and much longer gun life.


If I am able to swap my Vortek seal for the proper one and have to disassemble again, I would like to do some trigger work...

Email on the way

Jim

Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/