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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:24 pm 
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I just finished doing a deburr, tune lube on two brand new guns, a Ruger Air Magnum .22 & a Umarex Surge .177, installed a couple Vortec PG2 kits in them with O-ring seals, still yet to shoot them off, looking forward to bringing them out soon though :)

So I have this Ruger Air Hawk sitting around here with just the open sights. I wont scope this one because of the poor dovetail grooves, so I was thinking of experimenting a bit with a spring from the Ruger Air Magnum .22 that I took out because of the Vortec Kit I installed in it, the spring coils are further apart on the magnum spring but the gauge seems the same, it looks thicker to me though, although the calipers show it to be the same thickness, the coils for the Ruger Air Hawk are 28 for 1200fps version out of box, A Vortec spring OEM+ that I have on hand has 31 coils, the Vortec spring getting 50+ fps more from my testing. Sooo I was thinking of cutting down the Magnum spring to see if I can make this baby reach 1400fps and turn it into a Gamo Big Cat 1400 or the likes lol. But I am wondering should I hack this Magnum spring up, would it be worth it or would it not really get much better in power from power only standpoint, accuracy aside ... cause am thinking the receiver tube might need to be longer to really gain much more ?


:mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:34 am 
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The swept volume would have to be increased to get any significant gains in power. I've found an oversprung rifle only increases the cocking effort and recoil felt . Not to mention it usually makes the rifle a lot harder to shoot accurately.
I do believe the ruger is another xs-b25 variant (Diana 34 clone) most likely closer to 1000 fps in .177 mileage may vary. With that said experiments are always fun .

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Not quite done collecting
PP700SA .25
Alecto .177
HW97 .177
HW80 .177
HW35 .177
HW100KTFSB 177
Winchester 257-70
Discovery 257
Airspeed .25
Frankendisco .25
FX ImpactX .223,22,177,172
K550 .22
Windy City .22
Daisy 953 .177


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:45 am 
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Testing it right now at 1029 fps with CHP .177 one washer. still have some room to add more, we'll see. Could also still be dieseling. The spring was cut down and the end flattened as best as I could, anyone know a good "technique" to flatten spring ends or close them well? and I mean not grinding the end but closing the end flat ect, I have lots of machinery on hand.

Ah yes before I forget the Ruger Air Hawk is the same as the Umarex Surge .177 if anyone is wondering and the Vortec PG2 D-34 tune kit works for both guns, stocks are interchangeable too.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:21 pm 
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The airhawk spring likely looked like the ram spring at one time, but settled over time. Or could be from a different vendor, lowest bidder and all that, or just a different lot. Aside from that the only diff should be lenght/coil count. Ideally for max performance you want the longest spring you can stuff in there, but it's not a big deal if shorter and shimmed but the shorter it is the worse things get. Also, when the spring is fully compressed its under a lot of strain and will settle a bit, how much depends on the metal, tempering and winding rate. The chinese springs settle more than say US or German springs. Point is sometimes you can be in your position where you have room to shim more, but the spring will quickly settle under that additional stress and you end up with the same power before you shimmed. A quality spring wound correctly could be compressed to coil bind and change very little. Just fyi. So if you wanted you could buy another Vortek spring, just the spring, not the very expensive kit. Optionally you could get a stronger one than what came with the kit. For example you could get a stronger 350 spring, put it in the ram, then put the old vortek from the ram in the hawk and both guns bennie :) And they make several strengths to choose from, and lengths up to a point. I get max length then cut as needed.
They sell the O-ring main seal too, unless one of your old seals is salvageable.
Any idea what those pellets weigh? I was guessing Destroyers? I have some maybe 5 years old and they weigh 7.4gr, but who knows what they weigh today or if they're consistent.
To do the spring, practice on an old one. Just cut it however, then press it against a grinding wheel so it both wears it down like you want and gets it red hot. Then use a flat surface to press the spring on to bend it. It will no doubt take a few tries to get it nice. Try grinding the tip first, then work back further, this way you end up heating the thicker part last since it'll be harder to bend. Note how the Vortek ends were done and you should have an idea of what to shoot for. If grinding went well but bending not so much, you can use a propane torch to heat it and try again.
The section that's bent isn't used so no loss, but try not to let the spring further beyond that get hot. Once you have to down you can grind it for maybe 10 seconds, quickly flatten the red hot part and done.
And lastly, you can make a plastic liner for the piston so it's much quieter, basically a home made vortek deal. I posted pix of it done to a 350 not to long ago.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:00 pm 
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Chevota wrote:
The airhawk spring likely looked like the ram spring at one time, but settled over time. Or could be from a different vendor, lowest bidder and all that, or just a different lot. Aside from that the only diff should be lenght/coil count. Ideally for max performance you want the longest spring you can stuff in there, but it's not a big deal if shorter and shimmed but the shorter it is the worse things get. Also, when the spring is fully compressed its under a lot of strain and will settle a bit, how much depends on the metal, tempering and winding rate. The chinese springs settle more than say US or German springs. Point is sometimes you can be in your position where you have room to shim more, but the spring will quickly settle under that additional stress and you end up with the same power before you shimmed. A quality spring wound correctly could be compressed to coil bind and change very little. Just fyi. So if you wanted you could buy another Vortek spring, just the spring, not the very expensive kit. Optionally you could get a stronger one than what came with the kit. For example you could get a stronger 350 spring, put it in the ram, then put the old vortek from the ram in the hawk and both guns bennie :) And they make several strengths to choose from, and lengths up to a point. I get max length then cut as needed.
They sell the O-ring main seal too, unless one of your old seals is salvageable.
Any idea what those pellets weigh? I was guessing Destroyers? I have some maybe 5 years old and they weigh 7.4gr, but who knows what they weigh today or if they're consistent.
To do the spring, practice on an old one. Just cut it however, then press it against a grinding wheel so it both wears it down like you want and gets it red hot. Then use a flat surface to press the spring on to bend it. It will no doubt take a few tries to get it nice. Try grinding the tip first, then work back further, this way you end up heating the thicker part last since it'll be harder to bend. Note how the Vortek ends were done and you should have an idea of what to shoot for. If grinding went well but bending not so much, you can use a propane torch to heat it and try again.
The section that's bent isn't used so no loss, but try not to let the spring further beyond that get hot. Once you have to down you can grind it for maybe 10 seconds, quickly flatten the red hot part and done.
And lastly, you can make a plastic liner for the piston so it's much quieter, basically a home made vortek deal. I posted pix of it done to a 350 not to long ago.




Thanks for the ideas, that will help greatly with the spring ends, guess I need some heat on the spring ends then. The pellets I use for testing are Crosman Hollow Points 7.9 gr. I could try adding a sleeve & internal spacer riser. What I have on hand right now is a 28 coil stock spring (stock 1200fps version) A 31 coil Vortec spring OEM+; And of course the magnum spring, It did have 40 coils I believe. I have it cut down now to 34


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:21 pm 
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Some ideas on finishing the cut end here:
topic66030.html

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:48 am 
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Dukemeister wrote:
Some ideas on finishing the cut end here:
topic66030.html



Thanks Dukemeister !


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:49 pm 
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Location: Yukon
Hobbyman2007 wrote:
The swept volume would have to be increased to get any significant gains in power. I've found an oversprung rifle only increases the cocking effort and recoil felt . Not to mention it usually makes the rifle a lot harder to shoot accurately.
I do believe the ruger is another xs-b25 variant (Diana 34 clone) most likely closer to 1000 fps in .177 mileage may vary. With that said experiments are always fun .



I agree the Ruger Airhawk is a Diana 34 clone but I am confused when looking at the Ruger Blackhawk on line. Wholesale Sports on line clearly shows what appears to be a Phantom stock and no visible safety except down by the trigger indicating a Crosman B18/19 design while a Ruger Blackhawk on Walmart USA site shows a 34 clone.
By the way Canadian Tire uses a pic of a Crosman Quest (bulky stock) when prompting the more elegant stocked Optimus. All this indicates care needs to be taken when ordering on line with an idea of switching stocks etc.
Sorry for the distraction, back to the mod................I am following closely.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:40 pm 
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tango wrote:
Hobbyman2007 wrote:
The swept volume would have to be increased to get any significant gains in power. I've found an oversprung rifle only increases the cocking effort and recoil felt . Not to mention it usually makes the rifle a lot harder to shoot accurately.
I do believe the ruger is another xs-b25 variant (Diana 34 clone) most likely closer to 1000 fps in .177 mileage may vary. With that said experiments are always fun .



I agree the Ruger Airhawk is a Diana 34 clone but I am confused when looking at the Ruger Blackhawk on line. Wholesale Sports on line clearly shows what appears to be a Phantom stock and no visible safety except down by the trigger indicating a Crosman B18/19 design while a Ruger Blackhawk on Walmart USA site shows a 34 clone.
By the way Canadian Tire uses a pic of a Crosman Quest (bulky stock) when prompting the more elegant stocked Optimus. All this indicates care needs to be taken when ordering on line with an idea of switching stocks etc.
Sorry for the distraction, back to the mod................I am following closely.

Airhawk and Blackhawk are near clones of the Diana 34, there are a few parts that don't interchange but are basically the same action, barrel, and trigger. So as far as triggers go, the "hawks" have T-05 Diana trigger clones (at least they did when first introduced, they may have upped the ante to T-06 nowadays). These are very different triggers than Crosman's B18/19. Airhawk and Airhawk Elite have wood stocks, Blackhawk has black composite stock. And it's true the XS-25 (wood) and XS-25B (black composite) are the same as the Hawks; i.e., near clones of the D34.
Now, as for the Ruger Air Magnum, it's a clone of the Diana 350 Magnum and is also marketed as the XS-28M. They all (34/350/hawk/25/28) use the same piston seal and have same ID for compression chamber which is why seals and spings can be interchanged. As for tuning, different kits are available. I have only ever detuned one of these, a Airhawk Elite that I bought locally retail, and although it was non-PAL it was shooting very hot so I ended cutting down the spring to legalize it - but that's a different story. This thread piqued my interest in my Hawk, so I did some digging and found this interesting article linked off Archer's website. It may give you some ideas for tuning your Hawk-Magnum.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/98544721/Arc ... -for-Ruger
:drinkers:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:40 pm 
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great links!!

thanks


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:34 pm 
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I seen that link before, tons of good info on his website. The shims he sells is good and all but if you have allot of airguns or plan too, get a hollow punch set, mines a 12 piece kit, you can shim your own with almost anything around the household for material, plastic ect. I do this on all my airguns. Breech sealing is a must for sure, I have seen allot of airguns with virtually no contact what so ever, they tend to machine the o ring breech seal well too deep and damn thing is way inside, no contact what so ever lol, some airguns are perfect right from the get go but Ruger & Umarex definitely are inconsistent with their machining process !


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:55 am 
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Location: Ontario
Just a small update on the Ruger Air Hawk .177

With just a spring change and no modifications such as a new seal, stock gun, only moly lubed, here are some numbers

Crossmen Destroyers 7.9

1010
1001
981.9
999.7
934.0
993.6
986.3
1001.3
998.4
991.8
973.5

The Ruger Magnum Spring with 34 coils out of the 40 with washers works pretty good if you ask me, could probably get away with 35 coils, the recoil is not bad but am not doing accuracy testing so ... there ya go folks, not gonna reach crazy speeds but its better then a stock spring (28) and a Vortec OEM+ (31)

PS my stock piston seal has a small nick from the dam factory install, so am definitely going to change it.

Ruger Hawk Magnum :rolleyes:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:09 am 
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Location: Ontario
I will button and and sleeve the Ruger today and be back with some Crossman Destroyer 7.9gr numbers. Hopefully it will float around 1020-1030 fps area. I need to resupply on pellets for alloy still & hollow points, I bet alloys will rip around the 1250-1300 fps area

If this Ruger Air Hawk is hitting this hard with CD 7.9gr leads then that's around 130fps less then the Benjamin Trail NP XL 1500 with the same pellet. That's pretty good !


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:40 pm 
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My Destroyers weigh 7.4, but no doubt vary batch to batch. Point being you can't really know the weight unless you weigh them yourself.
It's possible that main seal could be sanded down to remove that bad spot, which most all of them have.
Attached is a pix of Diana seal that was kinda nasty but salvageable. Making it thinner makes more power and makes the gun shoot smoother, quieter and less abusive to the scope. They can only be sanded so far down since they act as a rubber bumper that the gun must have or the center dovetail will hit metal to metal. Usually you only sand the face down, but in some cases you can sand the sides a bit too, which I did a bit on this one. I have more pix and info if needed.

The XL no doubt has a leaky seal too, but they also have a crummy design imo so I wouldn't bother sanding them. The one in the link(s) are much better and will net you some free power, plus you'll get all the bennies mentioned. You shouldn't need to sand it since it's already thinner, but you probably can a little:
http://tinyurl.com/o7jsmwz
http://tinyurl.com/mq5ucfx
The XL will no doubt like 10-13gr pellets much better, like the JSB 13.43. The XL works much better in 22, like 30-40% more power between the barrel and that seal. They sell the 22 barrel as a part which I rekon is ~$32CA. Not too hard to swap it out, but I can explain the details if interested.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:09 am 
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Chevota wrote:
My Destroyers weigh 7.4, but no doubt vary batch to batch. Point being you can't really know the weight unless you weigh them yourself.
It's possible that main seal could be sanded down to remove that bad spot, which most all of them have.
Attached is a pix of Diana seal that was kinda nasty but salvageable. Making it thinner makes more power and makes the gun shoot smoother, quieter and less abusive to the scope. They can only be sanded so far down since they act as a rubber bumper that the gun must have or the center dovetail will hit metal to metal. Usually you only sand the face down, but in some cases you can sand the sides a bit too, which I did a bit on this one. I have more pix and info if needed.

The XL no doubt has a leaky seal too, but they also have a crummy design imo so I wouldn't bother sanding them. The one in the link(s) are much better and will net you some free power, plus you'll get all the bennies mentioned. You shouldn't need to sand it since it's already thinner, but you probably can a little:
http://tinyurl.com/o7jsmwz
http://tinyurl.com/mq5ucfx
The XL will no doubt like 10-13gr pellets much better, like the JSB 13.43. The XL works much better in 22, like 30-40% more power between the barrel and that seal. They sell the 22 barrel as a part which I rekon is ~$32CA. Not too hard to swap it out, but I can explain the details if interested.


Thanks for the ideas Chevota! I will try the seal mod out actually cause thats a pretty good idea. love it. As for the .22 barrel for the XL, Id rather go for a .25 barrel as I already have enough .22's lol. Ok time to play lol


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