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What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
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Author:  jgoodz420 [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
I have been thinking of getting a spring piston gun to shoot FT with, I am undecided as to whether I would shoot Open or WFTF. I have been doing a lot of research on these type of guns and have a couple options in mind, in order of preference......

1) AA Pro Sport (Open)
2) AA TX200 (Open) or TX200 HC (WFTF)
3) HW97K (Open)



I believe both Air Arms models have the "edge" on the HW95, and I really doubt I would buy one as I personally just like Air Arms products better. I am really wondering what the main differences are between the Pro Sport and the TX.....

Also wondering......
- Are the internals the same to some extent, or not at all?
- Does the PS have the same bearing supported piston system?
- How does the accuracy compare?
- Difference in barrels, shrouds etc...


Please add any information, advice or recommendations about the gun you select from the poll,
-Thank You
Author:  canshooter [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
Ive got the TX200 and the HW97k and Ive tried the Prosport TX200 gets my vote.
Author:  Dukemeister [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
The Pro Sport does seem to have a long list of accolades.
Once you get going, I think you need at least one of each! 8)
Author:  pirellip [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
This is a question that has been asked many, many times before, not here, in the UK, where there are 100 times the air rifle shooters.

It all boils down to personal preference at the end of the day; all of those rifles, when properly tuned, are capable of winning national and world titles; in fact the HW97 and TX200 each have won many world titles.

I'm not sure how many titles, if any the Pro Sport has won; but from an engineering standpoint, I think it has a slight edge over the others with consistent POI, and most top shooters have been shooting since the Pro Sport was released, and I'm sure are happy with their current rigs, so see no point in changing.

Regardless of weather you shoot open or WFTF, it is widely accepted that sub 12fpe is the preferred power level. These rifles were originally designed for sub 12fpe, when shooting faster than that they are running too hot, and not as smooth as they should be.

If I were you; I'd try to find a used TX200 Mk2 with a 12fpe piston in it, which may be tough (you may find one in the US) or if $$ is no object, a V-Glide tuned HW97k, or any of the other rifles tuned by V-Mach.

An aftermarket FT specific stock will also do wonders for improving accuracy and consistency; the ergonomics of them make a big difference.

For the budget minded, the BAM B40 isn't bad either, once it's been tuned. I has the potential to be just as accurate and consistent.

In any case, whatever you do get, you'll be happy with it. I find piston shooting a bit less 'clinical' then PCP shooting, think it's very rewarding.
Author:  Voltar1 [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
I picked 'Other'

.177 BAM B40 would be a great rifle for the money :)
Author:  Mac [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
I had a real nice Pro Sport and found it hard to shoot accurately.

I then had a TX200 MKIII at full power and found it difficult to group with as well.

I have a TX200HC in .20 caliber, which is very accurate, but also very hold sensitive. Any difference in hold translates to a change in the impact point. I'm learning though and find this gun a real help for practicing hold consistency.

I have a B40 and although the gun is quite accurate, I find the stock too light and it makes it harder to shoot. I am going to try it in the TX stock to see if it helps the balance.

I was lucky enough to find a TX200 MKII and it shoots well even at high power, but since I tuned it to sub 12 fpe, it is a pleasure to shoot. I have a Dave G. stock on it as well and that sure improves the steadiness when shooting.

I have been looking for a 12 ft/lb piston as pirellip suggested, but they are not common over here where most seem preoccupied with power. I'll keep looking though. I also have a Vorteck tune kit which I am going to try out in the near future.

I like the TX200MKII.
Author:  Suprmatic [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
Hey Joel - it sure would be nice to have someone shooting in Open Piston with me :D . Seems everyone migrated over to WFTF piston, or PCP, so the Open Piston division kinda became extinct.
I really miss shooting my springers..... :( .

FWIW, the HW97KL is a superb gun for either class. The extra weight of the laminated stock helps to tame what little recoil will be left once the gun is tuned down to around 12 FPE. My own 12 FPE HW97KL almost feels like shooting a recoilless gun.

From shooting both the AA Pro-Sport, and a few of the different TX 200 models, IMO, the PS is a bit more difficult to cock because of the cocking lever geometry - so my preference would be the TX 200, for that one reason.

I hope to add a TX200 to my collection sometime.......... :lol: .
Author:  jgoodz420 [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
Thanks for the input everyone....

Voltar1- IIRC you have a different piston or a different piston seal in there don't you? a Vortek or something? I saw Mac mention them as well but I have never seen where they can be ordered?


Mac- I may ask Travis(AGS) if he could get a 12FPE piston or better yet a 12FPE model TX200 or PS, or have you asked him about this before?


Suprmatic- I love the blue laminate HW97K, very sharp looking gun, I also like a gun with a little weight to it. Is it easier to obtain a 12FPE piston (or whatever is needed) for the HW97K than the TX200? I'm not really set on WFTF or anything just wondering whats available. Also how is the hold sensitivity with the HW? its sounding like the TX is quite hold sensitive?
Author:  jgoodz420 [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
Could a Diana 54 (with the recoiless system) hold pace with these other mentioned guns? I kind of forgot all about that gun. I've shot one before but just to Chrony test, didn't get to see how well it groups or anything......
Author:  Suprmatic [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
jgoodz420 wrote:
Suprmatic- I love the blue laminate HW97K, very sharp looking gun, I also like a gun with a little weight to it. Is it easier to obtain a 12FPE piston (or whatever is needed) for the HW97K than the TX200? I'm not really set on WFTF or anything just wondering whats available. Also how is the hold sensitivity with the HW? its sounding like the TX is quite hold sensitive?

AFAIK, the HW97KL can be downtuned with just mainspring and tophat adjustments. You could talk to CJN about what is involved. I bought Chris' HW97KL from him, already downtuned for his own use, and I had him leave it at that power level when I bought it, despite the option to have it restored to full power. IMO, it is perfect at 12 FPE.

I found that when I had a chance to compare a TX200 side by side with my HW97KL, that the HW was much less hold sensitive. The TX was far lighter in weight, so that may be the difference right there.

jgoodz420 wrote:
Could a Diana 54 (with the recoiless system) hold pace with these other mentioned guns?

Absolutely. Windbag did great with his 54, and it was in .22 cal. The gun is a bit bulkier than the others mentioned above, but it is certainly accurate enough to get the job done.
Author:  Voltar1 [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
What is the Piston Open/WFTF game? If I ever get a chance I should get ready for that eh?

Joel, the B40 I have is running the OEM spring and it is amazingly smooth running around 15fpe in .22
I think I would prefer a .177 for targeting so will be trying to add one of those to my kit. The Vortek kits are in my Airhawk
and B28 both work very well. smooth and linear recoil.

Supr, I would shoot with you :) how good do I have to get? what position(s)?

Walter....
Author:  jgoodz420 [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
Suprmatic wrote:
AFAIK, the HW97KL can be downtuned with just mainspring and tophat adjustments. You could talk to CJN about what is involved. I bought Chris' HW97KL from him, already downtuned for his own use, and I had him leave it at that power level when I bought it, despite the option to have it restored to full power. IMO, it is perfect at 12 FPE.

I found that when I had a chance to compare a TX200 side by side with my HW97KL, that the HW was much less hold sensitive. The TX was far lighter in weight, so that may be the difference right there.

Alright thanks for the info Len, I will be giving the 97 more consideration with that in mind. I will have to tryout a few of these guns at match sometime and see what I like best. I still am quite interested in the Pro Sport as I like its design, and the harder coking stroke is not too much of an issue for me. I will have to send out a email and see if any of these can be ordered in 12FPE right from England, if that is possible it may be the perfect fit.....Also is there any difference between the older HW97KL and the HW97KT? I saw in a picture you were testing a new KT version 8)

Suprmatic wrote:
Absolutely. Windbag did great with his 54, and it was in .22 cal. The gun is a bit bulkier than the others mentioned above, but it is certainly accurate enough to get the job done.

I remember shooting some guys 54 at the Waterdown show, and it was definitely a large gun, I think it wouldn't be much of an issue as I am pretty tall and like bigger/heavier guns in general, especially for FT. I also really like the concept of the action sliding back in the stock, but are there known issues with this? and is it really worth the $$$ I'm assuming this recoiless system would make the gun not sensitive to hold? or at least not as much as the others?
Author:  Mac [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
In national and world championship events, the TX is used about five to one or more over the HW. I looked through many results and could not find a Diana 54. These people are the ones who have tried just about everything and overwhelmingly prefer the TX.

I agree there are a lot of good guns out there, but for serious FT, the TX action seems to be preferred by a fairly large margin over anything else.
Author:  jgoodz420 [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
Voltar1 wrote:
What is the Piston Open/WFTF game? If I ever get a chance I should get ready for that eh?

Joel, the B40 I have is running the OEM spring and it is amazingly smooth running around 15fpe in .22
I think I would prefer a .177 for targeting so will be trying to add one of those to my kit. The Vortek kits are in my Airhawk
and B28 both work very well. smooth and linear recoil.

Supr, I would shoot with you :) how good do I have to get? what position(s)?
Most people shoot from a sitting position, then there are usually a lane with standing, and one with kneeling. I didn't practice kneeling and really hurt my score at the Nationals.....
Walter....


Open is basically up to 20FPE, you can use certain thing you cannot use in WFTF.....

WFTF;
A) Any Piston gun with any sight. The power of the rifle may not exceed the current WFTF maximum allowable level of 12 fpe (at the muzzle) with the competitor’s ammunition.
B) Shooters will not use natural support from the ground or course (such as from trees, tree branches, fallen logs, etc.).
C) Portable seats will not be allowed if they are higher than 6” (15cm) or have a backrest. Seats, bum bags, or cushions will not be used, as a rest, to support the rifle.
D) Straps or harnesses will not be used to enhance the shooter’s position.
E) Bipods, crossed sticks, and monopods will not be allowed.
F) Handheld wind indicators will not be allowed.
G) Separate sighting or range finding systems will not be allowed.



The B40 would definitely be a great option, where did you get your Vortek kit from Walter? I am not familiar with the maker of them....
Author:  Mac [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is best for piston division? (Open/WFTF)
Here is the link.

http://www.vortekproducts.com/home

I just got mine last week. It came in the mail with no extra charge. I actually ordered two TX kits, since I have the two TXs and a B40. My MKII is shooting so well, I may leave it as is and try one of the kits in the HC.

I actually bought the B40 with a Conservation Club member in mind, who has expressed interest in a spring gun to hunt with and to start shooting hunter FT. I tuned it to about 14 ft/lb and it seems fairly smooth and quite accurate.
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