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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:34 pm 
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Location: Caledon , Ontario
Dr. Frankengun ,
Thanks for helping to try to keep this thread on track . That is an excellent idea for a top hat . the convex surface would really reduce friction . What lubricant did you use with it ? Have you had the gun apart since to check for wear ? What ftlbs is the rifle shooting at ? How hard is the bronze vs. the steel piston ?
Questions , questions , questions ...


Thanks
Warren


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:50 pm 
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warren wrote:
Dr. Frankengun ,
Thanks for helping to try to keep this thread on track . That is an excellent idea for a top hat . the convex surface would really reduce friction . What lubricant did you use with it ? Have you had the gun apart since to check for wear ? What ftlbs is the rifle shooting at ? How hard is the bronze vs. the steel piston ?
Questions , questions , questions ...


Thanks
Warren


I used a moly grease. The gun shoots about the same speed as it did from factory but the cycle is smoother.

I used 660 bearing bronze because it will turn freely against steel (without gauling the surface) even without grease. I expect that it may have a small flat spot by now but it will still be a much smaller surface area than the spring alone.

I will take this gun apart some time this winter to check it out.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:07 pm 
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Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
warren wrote:
Some guns ,For instance the Quest series Are very rough inside the piston where the top hat sits . the flat surface in the bottom of the piston is a dificult place to get into to smooth out . But if you could (perhaps by spinning a tophat in place with some valve compound on it ; then make a new tophat and spring stop/guide out of bronze or nylon . Making parts that actually fit . You might just take some of the buzz out of these guns . Of course they could benefit from a heavier stock since the high powered ones jump around like a wild beast during the firing cycle .
I'm thinking about experimenting with adding some weight to the Phantom stock . There are a lot of cavaties and areas where I could put the weight , The question is what to use and how to keep it balanced . Ideally I want something removable and of a uniform weight . Duct seal ?
I know this may seem silly and defeats the purpose of the synthetic stock but it would be easier than experimenting with a wood stock . If the whole rifle weights just over 6 pounds I'm thinking of increasing the weight to 7 - 71/2 pounds and going up from there .
Once I smooth out the firing cycle then I can go to work on the trigger . Lots of work there to do .
Does anyone know which spring(s) JM sells for the Quest ? they aren't listed as such on his site .
Lots of questions and slowly ,slowly I'm getting the answers .

Warren

Sounds like you have the top hat/ piston head issued figured out already.

Many of the early recoiling match guns used chunks of lead in the stocks for balance and taming the shooting behavior. The plastic stock may present more of an obstacle, but you could try some of the stick on lead wheel weights that are used on mag wheels. They are segmented, which will help you to balance them out, and the double sided tape should hold up to the rigours of any springer.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:15 pm 
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DoctorFrankengun wrote:
This is from a post that I made some time ago. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

"The spring on a B-4 sits on a flat surface in the bottom of the piston. To allow the spring to freely twist or rotate during the cycle I made this round nose bearing from 660 bearing bronze."

Image

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The gun had a bit of twang before the bearing was installed but that twang is gone now. I also replaced the plastic end cap with a metal one.

Now that is a cool idea, and certainly new to me - I obviously missed your initial posting.
I for one, would love to know the long term results that you achieve with this idea. Could be a new trend in the wind.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:21 pm 
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DoctorFrankengun wrote:
I used a moly grease. The gun shoots about the same speed as it did from factory but the cycle is smoother.

I used 660 bearing bronze because it will turn freely against steel (without gauling the surface) even without grease. I expect that it may have a small flat spot by now but it will still be a much smaller surface area than the spring alone.

I will take this gun apart some time this winter to check it out.

I, for one, am going to hold you to that last statement - LOL!!!! I suspect that you will find very little wear, but I'm keen to see the actual parts.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:31 pm 
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I also remember the first time that rounded spring front guide bearing was posted. Any rifle without a centre rod could benifit from that guide (Diana 45 comes to mind). Come to think of it, the design could be drilled out and used in any piston with a centre rod and have good results (I am fairly sure of that). It will be very interesting to see how everything held up this winter. As long as the spring is large enough to let compression twist it to one side and cause a bend, the spring should look great. For those that are not sure what I mean, I have an older HW 35 that needed a bit of a spruce-up in the velocity department. The spring I took out was an original. It was much smaller than the inside diameter of the piston and it did not have a tophat to keep it centred. The rear did. When I replaced it, the front of the spring was twisted like a pretzel and the back was as straight as an arrow. I hope that B-4 spring comes out straight from one end to the other.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:40 am 
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DoctorFrankengun wrote:
I used 660 bearing bronze because it will turn freely against steel (without gauling the surface) even without grease. I expect that it may have a small flat spot by now but it will still be a much smaller surface area than the spring alone.

I will take this gun apart some time this winter to check it out.


Very interesting concept there DFK.



I've cleaned up this excellent thread for info, the first person to troll
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:27 pm 
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LOL,,,,Good Move there Dan,,,,Ban away, :lol: ,,Andy.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:49 pm 
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Thanks Dan ,
I was able to learn quite a bit through this thread . I was worried it would be lost in all the other drama . Hopefully others can learn from this too .
Warren


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:58 pm 
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I have a question about the convex 'cap' DFG put together: Do you also install some sort of spacer or slug between it and the underside of the piston head?

Seems that you have "loaded" the center of the piston head with full spring pressure, which could result in a convex piston top eventually, or perhaps even a piston failure- whereas a load-spreading device- such as an appropriately cut piece of 1/16" steel plate would stop that. Any idea of how many shots have been put through the gun with that cap and how the piston looked afterwards?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:10 pm 
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Doc/George is the only one person who's ever attempted this so called Thrust Bearing idea in this Forum. Myself in my AG's I wouldn't use it because of my AG designs. Whats up with this subject all of a sudden anyway's ? I did read some very rude comments invloving some other members concerning this topic about Thrust Bearings :roll: I'm just curious to whats actually going on, or whats not going on jere<<--Here ? But I didn't read much of those posts because they weren't very nice. Over-Bearing Comments don't turn my Crank ever. But I will say this, this is the first Forum were I've heard of such a Bearing...

KM...

EDIT: Simple AG Designs are my deal anywho :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:20 pm 
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AirGunEric wrote:
I have a question about the convex 'cap' DFG put together: Do you also install some sort of spacer or slug between it and the underside of the piston head?

Seems that you have "loaded" the center of the piston head with full spring pressure, which could result in a convex piston top eventually, or perhaps even a piston failure- whereas a load-spreading device- such as an appropriately cut piece of 1/16" steel plate would stop that. Any idea of how many shots have been put through the gun with that cap and how the piston looked afterwards?


The piston is quite thick so I didn't use any type of load spreading device. I have found that the "KISS" method often works the best and usually try things that way first. I also like to take things one step at a time. This is a cheap project gun that I bought for the sole purpose of experimentation.

I haven't had the chance to shoot it much. This year has been a bad one due to the fact that my wife has some serious health problems. Many things are on hold.

As the hunting season approaches I hope to get more shooting time in.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:38 pm 
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I was just wondering why some members were getting all upset about these Bearings, or there use or whatever the problem with using them is concerned. Like I said I've never until just ashort while ago saw one being used in your I think it was a B4 or maybe a B3 AG. Whats up, are they a good thing or not ? I've seen some pretty wild designs in my Life, but this is a first here. If it works great then :)

KM...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:17 pm 
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Dr. Frankengun ,
I was looking through some old posts today and came accross an interesting one .


Suprmatic wrote:
DoctorFrankengun wrote:
This is from a post that I made some time ago. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

"The spring on a B-4 sits on a flat surface in the bottom of the piston. To allow the spring to freely twist or rotate during the cycle I made this round nose bearing from 660 bearing bronze."

Image

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The gun had a bit of twang before the bearing was installed but that twang is gone now. I also replaced the plastic end cap with a metal one.

Now that is a cool idea, and certainly new to me - I obviously missed your initial posting.
I for one, would love to know the long term results that you achieve with this idea. Could be a new trend in the wind.


I wonder if the Doctor has had a chance to look at his top hat after he has worked it in for a while . I am interested in the long term results . It still looks like a great idea . Any info you could share would be great .

Thanks in advance .

Warren

p.s. I hope it is OK to revive an old thread .


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:55 pm 
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warren wrote:
I hope it is OK to revive an old thread .

I'm kinda' glad you did - I too would be most interested in hearing of any further developments on this idea of Dr FG.


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