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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:07 pm
Posts: 99
Location: Westville, Nova Scotia, Canada
Hey guys.
A friend of mine was showing me this air gun, and I thought it was pretty cool, but I wanted to know more about it. Its a Webley And Scott Mark 1 air pistol, and its .22 cal. If anyone knows anything, I would like to know, such as its value/ fps, and other information.

Thanks,
Aaron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:44 am
Posts: 164
Location: Iraq, lol
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20britanni ... t%20gb.htm

p


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
palo wrote:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20britannique/webley%20and%20scott/aa%20image%20webley%20and%20scott%20gb.htm
p

The author of that web-based info obviously knows squat about the Webley airpistols, and his knowledge of the powderburners is rather suspect as well.

Quote:
Pistol Webley & Scott models MARK 1

Serial number of the pistol: 022 Incorrect - this is a Post WW2 specimen, and the number is actually a batch number. Only Pre-WW2 Webley pistols bore actual serial numbers.

Type of operation: with one shot, and compressed air by spring

Manufacturer: Webley & Scott Birmingham GB

Gauge: .22/ inches 5.58 mm

Capacity: 1 shot

Overall length: 216 mm

Length of the barrel: 178 mm

Weight: 935 gr.

Period of manufacture: since 1939 Incorrect - the Mark I was introduced IIRC, around 1923, and went through numerous iterations before it arrived at the specific series shown.

Quantity manufactured: unknown factor

Note: although not having military punches it is thought that this gun would have been used as weapon of drive for the pilots. Incorrect - this is nothing but speculative drivel - The Webley air pistols were never, officially, or unofficially, used by any of the armed forces as a training or survival gun.

The same model also exists in gauges .177 inches / 4.495 mm or .25 inches /6.35 mm. Incorrect - the Mark I pistol was available only in .177 (no.1 bore) or .22 (no.2 bore). It was NEVER offered in .25 cal. (no.3 bore).


Airsofty - if you had a pic or two of the actual gun, it would make identifying it a whole lot easier.


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 Post subject: Vintage Webley Pistols
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
The webley power plant for the Tempest, Premier, Senior (best ever model) and the Mark1 are all exactly of the same original size.
The mainspring for the Tempest fits all.
The washer head diameter is the same.

I have had 8 models.
The Senior was far and away the best.
This example had the stronger linkage than the Mk 1 as did the slightly later Premier, but it also had a phosphor bronze piston ring instead of a washer.
This remained remarkably consistant once set up right and could be tuned to yield 500 fps in .177 cal.
It was possible with this design to machine off the front face of the piston by about 2 mm in order to facilitate greater head space (volume)

The Mk1 was fine.
Once the leather washer is set up right, it has gone on record as being the most accurate Webley pistol ever.
The leather offering better consistancy than the later Tempest but better damping to recoil than the bronze ring of the Senior.
It just lacked that stronger/more efficient cocking linkage.

Beautifully tuned and smooth (washer purchased from John Knibbs international) my own Mk1 ran 460fps.
Soak the washer for a week in linseed oil, and clean the gun.
Add no further lube, the linseed drenched washer will do all the lube for several months.
Use flat head pellets of English origin...they prefer the Imperial fit.
Steve


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
Stephen wrote:
The webley power plant for the Tempest, Premier, Senior (best ever model) and the Mark1 are all exactly of the same original size.
The mainspring for the Tempest fits all.
The washer head diameter is the same.

I strongly suggest that you purchase, and read the excellent book - Webley Air Pistols - by Gordon Bruce. Once you have done so, you will realize that the information that you have presented above is incorrect. The pistons in these guns differ in dimensions, weight, and location of certain key elements - such as the sear engagement point. The correct mainsprings differ as well, sometimes even within a model series. A "one spring fits all" approach may work, but as with so many things, it may also have detrimental results.

Stephen wrote:
This remained remarkably consistant once set up right and could be tuned to yield 500 fps in .177 cal.
It was possible with this design to machine off the front face of the piston by about 2 mm in order to facilitate greater head space (volume)

Nothing particularly noteworthy there - many of the .177 cal Webley pistols will be in the 450 - 475 FPS range, right out of the box.
Regards machining 2 mm from the front face of the piston - bad idea - where do you think that the mainspring is pushing against the piston? I forsee a fractured or broken piston resulting from this ill thought out advice.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:02 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:07 pm
Posts: 99
Location: Westville, Nova Scotia, Canada
I was going to post pictures of it too, but the camera batteries were dead... I will get a few, but it will have to be on a weekend because.....SCHOOL!
I'll put them in the gallery, and I am waiting for my friend to get the pictures of the paint jobs I did onto his thumbdrive, I will do them all in one day.

Thanks for the help.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 974
Location: Far
I own a mark1 and a "Senior" and I think it would be a sin to mod either in such a way that the "mods" would be permanent. These are an important chapter in airgun history. Why don't you go mod a 2240?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
I take exception to this attack on my friendly advice based across 30 years of knowing these guns, since my first junior at AGE 10.

I meant all the internal dimensions of these guns has remained the same, in regard of the inner chambers length and diameter (maybe i should have clarified this better)
All knibbs mainsprings are universal except for the smaller junior.
In otherwords, their lengths all fit and their diameters are the same!

Ofcourse, pistons within these chambers are going to be slightly different to facilitate the different washer systems.
The Tempest utilises a ptfe ring, the Premiers used polyurethane cup washers, the mk1 leather and Senior Phopshor.

As regard the Senior not being able to cope with my experimental mod (performed on one of my 2 seniors....a poor model for exp. purposes) there was still plenty of very solid hard steel left infront of the ring.
The forces acting on it are right through the piston from front to back, while smash down is actually very limited due to the cushion of air (otherwize all piston heads would be damaged)
In any event, even dry frying would never damage this supremely tough design which was hardened and tempered to 72 Rockwell.
The piston has been working (with no hint of damage) for almost 10 years now.

As regard velocities, few people who are enthusiasts believe in the Beeman figures.
I was never able to achieve anything near 500fps with normal pellets across all my time....niether has anyone else.
Beeman obtained his figures by way of speacial lubrication to the barrel (good for about 10 shots) and employed a speacial 6.9 grain pellet for his velocity tests.

Reality...Senior hit about 440fps absolute max without mod.
A nicely running MK1 (leather in good cond.) hit about 460fps max.
The Tempest returned 450fps, and ran into to about 465fps max.
The later Tempest from last year, is detuned to about 420 fps.
My Senior is still going 500fps with Mosquito pellets!

Cheers for you replies.....real nice!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
You can also add a small thruster over the mainspring guide rod.
This can be a turned washer with an internal diameter of 8.7 mm.
An outer diameter of 14mm will guarantee that the piston internal diameter will not bind on it, while the length should be about 3mm thick.
The result is a slightly smoothed out spin of the spring (all springs want to spin as they unwind for most efficient operation) while the 3 mm thickness will add a tiny little more compression but without binding of the spring.
I have found that 6mm will start to cause binding.

The problem is measuring the results.
Many will think that experimentation is silly when we can hardly detect it but others might be interested (as enthusiasts) in maximizing performance.
For me, this is what lifes about....experimenting, having fun.

For those who are interested, broad sampling of this mod resulted in a mean vel improvement of about 15fps.
It proved impossible to detect accuracy improvement/loss.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1702
Location: Mississauga, Ont.
Part of the problem with what you are telling people to do with their Senior pistons, is that the piston, without proper measurements being done beforehand, will hit the cocking linkage as it reaches the end of its travel. The gains that you get are just not worth it. I have a 1954 vintage Senior that gets 475 fps with regular pellets, not just the ultra-light ones. Better advice is given when you help restore one of these guns, not try to hot-rod them. Save that for disposable guns.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:27 am
Posts: 4512
Location: R.R. #3 Simhoe
I agree with Suprmatic and well :roll: Keyrigger also in what there saying here. Messing around with these older AG's "IS A SIN" :!: And if anyone performs them they are just showing there maturity which is none. Shaving the Piston, come on Man, thats nuyz doing that to an old Webley Scott or anyother older airguns. Cutting pistons belong to people who understand what there doing. And come to think about it theres only one right now I can think of. And it's NOT the Quest #500. It's the bad design in the Hatsan Models ie: #55,#60,#75,#85,#100,#105 which is almost the same as a Gamo CFX, and the final one the #125. I've spoken with Hatsan in Turkey about why the use those lonmg pistons in there H.Velocity AirGunz. Thats why they have so much Recoil. Well, Duh, no shyte shurlocke. Coil Bind and awhole pile of other knowledge is needed to be known before one starts any type of werk like this

Mike... :)

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 Post subject: Cocking slot
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
First up fellas, there is a goodly 3 mm left in the cocking slot ...after the Mod!
Webley allowed a huge length of over slot (relatively speaking for size of gun) to allow decocking, and there is plenty there for slimmer washer types and stuff.
I believe Knibbs actually produces his own design washers which are less thick for the Premier...theres nothing wrong with that really, and they give an extra 25 to 35fps too.

All i was doing was passing on some tuning stuff i had experince of, and like i said on the poorer of the 2 Seniors i have.
You dont have to perform the mods but we are on here to talk guns.
This later example i have has some slight rust pitting on the right side of the gun, often caused on the side where the gun is placed down ( owing to no thumb catch) resulting in some bluing getting worn.
The example is reasonable but not great, so i just had a play.....my choice!

I disagree that your weapon is doing 475 fps with standard pellets.
I know the weapon intimately, and it cannot do this in std form.
The Senior just doesnt, except perhaps if it diesels occasionally.
Seniors will max at about 440fps without modification, and i have never managed anymore.
Very simply, the senior piston represents a very similar stroke to that of the others but with the Phosphor bronze ring sat in a slot 3.8 mm back from the front head, we get lost volume!
The weapon simply cannot (physically) be quite as powerful as one where the washer material actually bottoms out at the back of the piston.
Thus the std. Senior cannot do 475fps outmatching the fully bottoming Premier and Mk1 model, which max at 460fps.
Nonsense!

Webley did once professionally tune the Tempest within there Venom custom workshop but couldnt match the Beeman figures of 500fps.
Indeed they hit 470fps by fitting their very own Venom feathered washer.

Beeman conned everyone on velocities but eventually admmitted to their activity when the business was sold on.
They had speacial pellets manufactured with loose fits at 6.9 grains (normally about 8.2 grains)
Tempests actually max out around 450fps with ordianry pellets but have been down tuned to shoot at 420fps.
Sadly, webley increased the piston length last year due to air pistol crime problems in Britain, and didnt want the guns banned.
Some might wish to mod these then!

I am sorry that you have taken humbridge with my posts....ill write into other topics!


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 Post subject: Modding old airguns
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 365
Location: French River, ON
Modifying mint condition collectors' in-the-box Webley air pistols could be a sin
BUT
I bought a .22 Premier MkI last year in Sudbury for $30.
Buggered up "DO NOT REMOVE" end plug.
Sheared off trigger adjustment lock screw.
Chipped grips.
Missing breech seal.
All screws marred.
Slight rust.
It will never be a collectors' item.
Perfect to leave in the tackle box or mod.
BTW, its nice for a change, to read some actual test results.
I had better not post what I did to my 4 digit serial no. first year production BSF S70.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:27 am
Posts: 4512
Location: R.R. #3 Simhoe
Whats with you guy's, you know who U are in modifying these AG to shoot hard and faster then they were ment to shoot. Here's a thought guy's. If your so bound and bent on speed I own a 1961 Walther LP-53 which I did a complete rebuild. Now with normal pellets it shoots @ 495.8-(fps) basically all of the time. But, when I switched over to PBA made by Gamo it shot # over 600-(fps). And this way you won't wreck the AG or get into shyte so to speak...

KM... :wink:

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 Post subject: Lp53
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 pm
Posts: 480
Location: Worcester in United Kingdom.
Now theres some bull litter if ive ever heard it.
I also tune this weapon (you have too since all the leather washer heads are gone for ever, or dried out)

It will never...ever do 495fps.

A beautiful piece it unfortunately breaks a millin rules on gun design (in respect of power)
I will not go into all the detail but basically the stroke is way to short in relation to the decent diameter (28mm piston being bigger than a Tempest)
This will return poor swept volume.
We are looking for long piston and versus narrow diameter for efficient return.

I managed to drag out another 40fps with my mod and increased smoothness, where my washers now sell to a commercial dealer.
This moves from about 340fps for a good one to about 380 ish.
495 fps is an impossibility unless converting to a pre charge or gas power plant....beyond even my ability!


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