Canadian Airgun Forum

The #1 Community for Airguns in Canada!
It is currently Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:01 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


The Canadian Airgun Forums are a place for people to discuss and learn about airguns and the airgunning sport in Canada. There are lots of discussions about airguns, airgun accessories, reviews, modification and repair information, airgun events, field target and free classifieds!

 

You need to register before you can post: click the register link to proceed. Before you register, please read the forum rules. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own pictures, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free! To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.






Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:03 pm 
Offline
Supporting Member 2009
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:45 pm
Posts: 501
Location: Toronto, ON
According to this thread, for shooting between 10-55 yards, you should setup your AO to 38 yards, if you can't correct it during the match.

Here's the explanation:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/me ... x+error%21


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:57 pm
Posts: 1754
Location: mb
Quote:
if you can't correct it during the match.

Why could you not correct it during a match? I thought it was only magnification that was fixed in certain classes?!?! :?

_________________
Don't Be Sexist - Broads Hate That.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:56 pm
Posts: 420
Location: Ontario
vAgRaNt wrote:
Quote:
if you can't correct it during the match.

Why could you not correct it during a match? I thought it was only magnification that was fixed in certain classes?!?! :?


In Canadian HFT you can:
- click during a match (elevation and windage).
- magnification is not fixed, but is capped at 15x. You can adjust magnification during the match.
- scope yardage markings must be covered (or use a scope with a fixed objective).

The exact wording from the Shoot Rules:
"C) Optical sights may not be set higher than 15 times magnification. Clicks may be used on the turrets and focusing is allowed to obtain a sharp image. All distance markings must be covered. Any reticule is allowed "

_________________
Canadian Airgun Field Target Association (CAFTA)
CAFTA Governor
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1702
Location: Mississauga, Ont.
As I pointed out in that thread, I have serious issues with the information
as presented there. It has been calculated out to the last fraction of an
inch for the parallax distance in front and behind, the ranges that will
have a limited parallax aiming error. Many, who make up these threads,
have little real experience with any scope magnification other than the
ubiquitous 3-9. Just attempt to use what he tells you is good with a scope
set at 15 times or higher, and you will see the significant fault of what he
is presenting. No magnification limit is presented and that is another
element that he completely overlooked.

That thread will have no impact on FT shooting in North America, as even
in the US, you are allowed to focus the scope. I pointed out just how bad
advice, that shows that focusing is not important, can be when it comes to
identifying your intended target. The "Set It and Forget It" mentality is
that of a lazy hunter and has no business being presented to the public. It
is a mathematical excercise and that is all it is.

_________________
Keyrigger
CAFTA Governor
Image
When you are long winded, is that a sign of Wisdom or Old Age?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:47 pm
Posts: 1726
Location: canada
Keyrigger wrote:
No magnification limit is presented and that is another element that he completely overlooked...The "Set It and Forget It" mentality is that of a lazy hunter and has no business being presented to the public. It is a mathematical excercise and that is all it is.

That's what popped in my head the second I started reading that! Further along in that thread someone intimated that higher power scopes are not usefull on air rifles! :roll: I think these theories that are proposed may be prompted by a lack of practical experience?! :? Or is that too harsh a criticism?! I mean, I applaud that persons enthusiasm and obvious work put into his calculations and spread sheets etc. but as stated, without mention of specific magnification levels why would anyone want to shoot blindly into an indiscernable haze?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:57 pm
Posts: 1754
Location: mb
Quote:
"yardage markings must be covered"

This doesn't preclude you from 'adjusting your objective' (thereby paralax), just from
'ranging' using the yardage markers on the bell or sidewheel.

Which is even further clarified in subsection "C":
Quote:
"and focusing is allowed to obtain a sharp image. All distance markings must be covered."


I guess I blew it, in that you are allowed to adjust Mag, just not beyond 15x.


The question I now have, is if you aren't allowed 'ranging' per se, what would the benefit
of allowing 'clicking'?

Would this be more for the non MDot reticle shooter?

If you don't know the range accurately, how would clicking to an unknown 'range
value' help you to knock down a target? :?

Set it and forget it, works very well at low mag, for Minute of Popcan shooting, but it
doesn't equate well to precision shooting. Can't speak to it's 'hunting' effectiveness,
but I have some suspicions. . . .
Quote:
someone intimated that higher power scopes are not usefull on air rifles!

Actually, I read that as a very baited statment; SiNC enjoys provoking controversey.

_________________
Don't Be Sexist - Broads Hate That.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1702
Location: Mississauga, Ont.
To answer your question about why clicks are allowed, your eyes can act as pretty accurate rangefinders and if you can estimate the range and you know how many clicks you need to add, your shot will be much more on target. The same applies to the mildot reticule and that is another reason that it was decided to allow clicking. If your scope does not have that reticule you have little choice but to use a 30/30 reticule for holdover/under points, there are not enough to make it a useful scope for Hunter. In fact, there are a large number of scopes that are great for FT and Hunter that only have the 30/30 reticule. I have one on my S410 and intend to use it to the max in FT. In fact, you have lots of time to estimate the distances to the targets while you are settling down at the lane. SiNC jumps all over those that oppose him and if you think that was any amount of a jab, read his "Trigger posts" which are constant pokes with a cattle prod at Tim McMurray and Larry Durham. I like the "Minute of Popcan" description. So appropriate.Take care.

_________________
Keyrigger
CAFTA Governor
Image
When you are long winded, is that a sign of Wisdom or Old Age?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:47 pm
Posts: 1726
Location: canada
vAgRaNt wrote:
SiNC enjoys provoking controversey.

Believe it or not, that was the very first time I've been on that infamous yellow forum so I'm not familiar with SiNC. My bad for jumping to conclusions... :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1702
Location: Mississauga, Ont.
As a matter of fact, that was a pretty good conclusion you came to with one visit, lol.

_________________
Keyrigger
CAFTA Governor
Image
When you are long winded, is that a sign of Wisdom or Old Age?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:56 pm
Posts: 420
Location: Ontario
[quote="vAgRaNt" The question I now have, is if you aren't allowed 'ranging' per se, what would the benefit of allowing 'clicking'?

-Would this be more for the non MDot reticle shooter?

-If you don't know the range accurately, how would clicking to an unknown 'range value' help you to knock down a target? :?

-Set it and forget it, works very well at low mag, for Minute of Popcan shooting, but it doesn't equate well to precision shooting.[/quote]




I assume you are clear now that in HFT ranging is more for producing a clear site picture (on adjustable objective scopes) than knowing the actual distance.

I assume you also know that any scope can be used, and magnification can be adjusted during that match, as long at it stays at 15x or below, for the entire match.

With the simulation of a hunting scene in mind, HFT guess-ta-mates the distance, and the shooter holds over/under or clicks to match the distance they have judged.

Clicking may be preferred by those who don't have a mil-dot reticle, or/and those who know (by actual POI testing and possibly assisted by a program like ChairGun) the clicks needed at each distance.

In no way is HFT the precision class that PCP, Piston, and their Limited divisions are. It's just not possible with the scope limitations place on the HFT class.

_________________
Canadian Airgun Field Target Association (CAFTA)
CAFTA Governor
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:57 pm
Posts: 1754
Location: mb
Quote:
. . . your eyes can act as pretty accurate rangefinders . . . .

Maybe your eyes can, but it's a skill I've not yet acquired. :rolleyes:

Oddly though, I have been having pretty decent result with guesstimating hold over with Mdots.
Both are a form of the same thing; I guess it comes down to what you practice.

Just one more skill to add to the 'Needs Work' column. Sure would be nice to get at least one item
into the 'Skill Acquired' column. . . . . :lol:
Quote:
. . . read his "Trigger posts". . .

Trigger, Drooper Mounts, etc, etc. . . . Maybe I'm reading more than what is truely written,
but I think he quite often plays 'devils advocate' just to get a rise out of his chosen quarry.
Technical brilliance, isn't often paralleled by a keen sense of good social graces.
Quote:
. . . . jumping to conclusions. . .

I'd say more of an 'astute observation'. :wink:

Quote:
I assume you are clear now that . . . . It's just not possible with the scope limitations place on the HFT class.

This all makes sense, and I more or less grasp everything; other than the original post.
Quote:
. . . for shooting between 10-55 yards, you should setup your AO to 38 yards, if you can't correct it during the match.

Unless. . . . :idea: This is part of a misdirection ploy by 'pirellip', to ensure his victory in the matches. . . . .Sly Bastage!. . . .:mrgreen:

_________________
Don't Be Sexist - Broads Hate That.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1702
Location: Mississauga, Ont.
No, in fact, I do believe he was saying that with a bit of sarcasm. The thought of shooting a match that requires high precision using that simple a setup, is a sure invitation to frustration and a lot of misses. As also pointed out, "Minute of Tin Can" accuracy is about the best some of these "airchair mathematic experts" are ever capable of obtaining. When pushed to actually shoot in a competition, the answer invariably comes back to the negative. I think you have to appreciate that in a lot of these cases, the air rifles they use are about as rudimentary as a Benjamin pumper or Crosman Quest. There is nothing wrong with the rifles, that is not what I am getting at, so owners of these rifles, please don't jump all over me just yet. When you have numerous people that you know (all over the world), use rifles that are the latest technology and have some of the finest optics on the planet mounted on top, then see these equipment challenged (but mathematically perfect) shooters (if they even shoot anything) try to poopoo a scope like a Schmidt and Bender, Leupold Competition, or Bushnell Elite 4200 scope as being redundant, it is as good an indication of their lack of real knowledge and experience as you would ever need to see. To quote this individual, and I think this says it all, "I find that high mag is mostly irrelevant". Irrelevant for what? Long range target shooting? Taking out of flies at 50 yards? FT? IFP? I could go on but I think you see the point.

_________________
Keyrigger
CAFTA Governor
Image
When you are long winded, is that a sign of Wisdom or Old Age?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
News News Site map Site map SitemapIndex SitemapIndex RSS Feed RSS Feed Channel list Channel list

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

phpBB SEO