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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Location: Mississauga, Ont.
For those of you that have sidewheel scopes, one of the prerequisites for
preparing your rig, is the matching of your distance you see through your
scope, with either the number of clicks you will turn on your turret, or the
number of mildots you will hold over. Both methods provide you with the
distance to the target, but they are not the information you really need.

As you look at your distance as marked on the sidewheel, you may see a
distance of 35 yards. So from there, you either go to a chart to see where
your clicks should be set from your zero distance, or you may have that
on the wheel along with your distance. Don't jump on this until you read
the entire system. Forget what distance it is to the target, it means
nothing except for when you are sighting the rifle in. You don't care what
distance it is as much as you need to see some easy correlation between
the scope and the wheel. The most simple way to do this, is to use the
numbers on the turret as your marks on the wheel. In otherwards, if your
zero is 27 yards (mine happens to be this), then you look on your turret
to make sure it is at your zero setting.

Next target is at 47 yards in actual distance, but your scope will tell you to
move the turret 6 clicks up, or as mine shows it, 2-2. The first 2 is for the
major division on the turret and the second 2 is the second click in the
division. I will post a picture which will show an actual distance of 52
yards, but a click setting of 3-1 so you can see it in action. This eliminates
the converting of one marking system to another, and places the entire
sighting and adjusting of the turret OR the mildots to a single
straightforward system.

Now, you can still have numbers for distances on the wheel as you may
need to see the actual distance in order to calculate a hold-off for wind,
but experience will tell you that when you are ranging targets that look
pretty far out, you can rest assured they are and that you will get to know
where you hold off for certain wind pressures when you feel them, or see
the results in the scope.

I do have numbers on the wheel for that actual distance as a reminder,
but I have already memorized most of the long distance turret settings,
so it is only there for my senior moments, hehe. I have another turret
tape to put on that has all the numbers showing (Photoshop layer trial),
but will use that for a photo that will be sent to S&B as a suggestion for
the final turret markings.

Image
Image

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:25 am 
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Keyrigger wrote:
...zero is 27 yards (mine happens to be this)

You must have a reason for choosing this distance. Is it because with your trajectory this will give you minimal rise and drop from 10 to 55yds?
Keyrigger wrote:
This eliminates the converting of one marking system to another, and places the entire
sighting and adjusting of the turret OR the mildots to a single
straightforward system.

Very cool! 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:24 am 
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Keyrigger will have to sit us all down and give a lecture on this topic.... 8) 8) 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:39 am 
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The reason that it is chosen, is that is what Chairgun and Chairgun 2 calculate as the top of the trajectory for the scope height, pellet, and velocity. One of the more common mistakes I am now starting to see, is people mounting their scope higher than it should be as they think that it will help flatten out the clicks at further distances. Nor can you change the curve of the trajectory any significant amount by artificially pushing the distance you use for your zero. There are two of us here that shoot exactly the same rifle, scope, and at one time, pellet. Mine scope was mounted so close to the action, I had to shave the Butler Creek cap on the front so it didn't contact the receiver. His was mounted with the Steyr riser (non dropped version) and we carefully set both rifles up over a couple of seasons.

Everyone swears that when you mount the scope high, you will only need one or two clicks to change from 50 to 55 yards so your margin of error is greatly reduced. If that was true, then why did his rifle have once click difference in comparison to mine? I think this is akin to Urban Legend. His rifle took 5 clicks, mine took 6. That is with two 17 fpe rifles. Now let's look at what happens when you do this with a 12 fpe rifle. When both rifles were set to fire at about 777 fpe with JSB Exacts, my lower scope needed 8 clicks to change from 50 to 55 yards, and his needed 7. Wow, again, big savings of clicks there.

I pushed Chairgun 1 to near its limit for scope height, and set it to 5 inches above the bore. To put that is perspective, it is three times the height of your average scope mounting with a 50mm objective. At that distance, there is finally a change and you need only 5 clicks to change from 50 to 55 yards. Of course, you now have a very tippy rifle, that is really prone to canting errors, and you are no better off as the wind is still your greatest enemy at that distance. Let's also not forget that with 1/4MOA clicks, you now need 2 3/4 turns to sight in from your new 35 yard zero distance and we all know what being on the wrong rotation can do when you are one rotation out. Oh well, they think it works and I guess that is all that matters to them.

PS. The S&B scope would be the only scope in the world that you could use mounted that high, and never make a wrong rotation error. Not every one has 3 grand at their disposal, lol. The really interesting part of that experiment was that the scope could only handle working at 4 inches above the bore, or you would run out of clicks as you hit 10 yards. Mind you, with your 17 fpe rifle, you are finally only 3 clicks from 50 to 55 yards, lol. Take care.

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 Post subject: Scope risers........
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:44 am 
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Location: New Zealand
Hi Don,
Interesting subject this one.

I will tell ya what I have discovered, and why I persist with my drooped riser on the Steyr.........

Firstly, when you use ballistics software you always have to beware the "absoluteness" of the prediction. It just doesn't take account of variables such as pellet deformation from the rifling, which can cause turbulence around the pellet as it flies. This causes a change in the BC, and can vary between models, and even same models with variations in rifling. Most people admit that the Software is at best a good starting point.

I don't rely on the riser to flatten out the trajectory........only more energy, or a lighter pellet will do that. Nor does the riser make much difference to the number of clicks required. The drooped riser system does however (as opposed to a non drooped riser) bring your scope into its optical centre, as opposed to being wound right down near its limits just to get the pellet to meet the crosshairs at 25,26 or even out to 29 yards. Quality of performance is reduced, the further out of the optimum optical centre you go, but this too is common knowledge.

Getting your sighting device as close to the barrel line is a open sights match shooters trick, and is essential when you only shoot one discipline where the distance is the same every shot, such as BR 10m ISSF etc etc. BUT with FT out to 60 yards and to some extent......F Class out to 900 yards, the extremes of the performance of both weapon and projectile come into play. W e have an F class shooter here who is learning heaps about his chosen sport by joining us at FT, its like mini F class for him, but cheaper.

Its also common knowledge that European manufacturers build to the lowest common denominator, ie: match shooting for ISSF where Air Rifles are concerned (so many German Air Rifles ahve drooped barrel syndrome for match shooting with diopters, Steyr included). That is why they made the aftermarket drooped riser, to allow us to match the rifle's default 10m match mode with our higher powered FT scopes' optimum settings at the etxreme ranges of our projectiles.

Its not about clicks, but about getting the best out of the scope, while marrying it to "adapted" match rifles. We can't all get a S&B....lol.

FT is a technical sport, and we are discovering more every day simply by pushing the boundaries.

And in answer to another question.........The reason I zero at 25 yards for FT, is because it is the "Point Blank Zero" for the power and pellet I have set my Steyr to. At 12 ft/lbs using 8.44 gr pellets, the very zenith of its trajectory never goes above the crosshairs (or in other words, your line of sight) only below. Everything before 25 and everything after 25 yards is just so much "clicks".......

By altering the energy setting on the rifle to 21 ft/lbs, using a 10.3 gr pellet my optimum point blank zero is 29 yards. It is a dynamic setting, and depends on rifles' power, pellet weight and BC.

Regards to all, cheers and thanks for allowing me to gate-crash your thread Don.

Adam


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:42 am 
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Location: canada
greyskull wrote:
...my drooped riser on the Steyr...

Is this the one you're talking about? Or something you've made yourself?
Image
greyskull wrote:
...FT, its like mini F class...but cheaper.

That's exactly what I tell my full bore buddies but these guys just can't seem to wrap their head around the fact they can learn anything by shooting a pellet rifle! :? If they only knew how helpful it can be!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:05 am 
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Location: New Zealand
"Windbag".......(love that handle BTW)

Image

Yup, that is the beastie. It is sold through Steyr as an accessory part. Its origins are from the world of FT, but I am not quite sure who supplied it to Steyr Sportwaffen. It is a nicely made accessory.

It is exactly 1mm lower at the front than the rear.

The Club member who shoots FClass is struggling a bit with FT, prefering to shoot Silouhette at our competitions. However he admits he has a bit to master, and some equipment purchases to make before cutting it with us. He also is a very fine marksman in his own right in his own specialties, representing NZ in Rimfire Silouhette as well. Helluva nice guy to boot, and doesn't look down his nose at us because we choose Airguns over firearms.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:16 am 
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Location: Mississauga, Ont.
Adam:

The original riser that Steyr supplied (or was sub-contracted to them), about 5 years ago, was not dropped at all and was originally for the Running Target Olympic sport (at least, that is what the distributor was told when I first talked to him about it). It was the FT shooters that forced the change to include more angle in the rail accessory, as a friends' rail is mute testiment to. When I was first looking at mounting the S&B, I was seriously concidering using the rail, as I had all elevation adjustment in one turn of the turret, and as my friend was no longer using the riser rail, I asked for permission to use it while I had the S&B scope for evaluation. I was hoping that I had made some mistake about the rail being parallet, but to my disappointment, it was a parallel rail. Ok, time for "Plan B" (droop the mounts).

When I dropped into Pilkington's Guns in Tennessee, last fall, I was able to see the latest scope rail, and just like yours, it's drooped. I should have broken down and bought it, just in case, but I would not have given myself the education of building a set of drooped mounts to set this scope up. I have two Steyr rifles, one is the FT model that you have seen pictures of, and the second is a Match rifle that I bought in a basket, from Pilkington's a couple of years ago. It is set up as best as I could, to stock specifications, and has .001" droop from the breach to the barrel band areal (which might give it .0015" at the muzzle). While it might not be exactly the specs of the factory, it certainly does have a small amount of droop, but as you said, it is only sighted for a single distance, and the optical centre and maximum click value of a scope is not involved in that rifle.

Take care and good to hear from you.

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 Post subject: QUESTION,
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:10 am 
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Location: New Zealand
Don,
In either of your Steyrs, do you still have the small grub screw in the top of the barrel band?..........Mine came with one just nipped up. Before buying it I had read people moaning about the fact it wasn't as truly free floating barrel because of this. So I took it out and just slid some o rings into the housing, which seem to work fine to keep it free of the Alu housing.

Do you keep the grub screw nipped up or have you removed this grub screw?.......Do you agree it would probably make little difference whether it is installed or missing? I shot my first match with it still in place and did very well considering I had only had it 12 hours beforehand. I might pu it back to see if there truily is any effect on POI. At most I think it is there for 10M shooters to adjust the barrel droop to suit them and their hold/eye position, and probably the effect is similar to a manual barrel droop adjuster. I wonder how much of a problem this really is for us?.....I haven't seen any POI change in the hot/cold since removing it and changing scope mounts to Weaver on the riser, from the dovetail on the receiver.

cheers
Adam


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:39 am 
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Adam:

I have the screw and pad in both rifles. When the rifle was first introduced, the tension screw had a nylon pad to put the tension on the barrel, so as to keep the set screw from marking or catching on the barrel metal. I have since seen that no manual or parts list shows the pad, but when I rebuilt the 10 meter Match rifle, I stuck a nylon pad in that I had cut from a wire spool. They never shift POI. There is not a lot of contact pressure put to the barrel by that screw, and it may even seem loose to you, but if it was making contact when you bought it, it was doing its job. I have tried your "O" ring version the first week I had my rifle, then fully free floated it, then put everything back the way it was. I am not the only one to leave it stock here, but no one else that has a stock FT rifle, has any issues and they still have the screw in place. If you ask most US Steyr shooters, they will tell you to free float the barrel.

Personally, I think the entire reason for free floating was the fact that most Steyrs used in FT in the US are converted 10 meter rifles, and have replacement barrels. They were replaced because the twist was far too slow to stabilize the preferred heavy pellets. Of course, they were told the barrels were no good, NOT that the twist rate was wrong, that they should be free floated to work properly, and most FT shooters in the US think Steyr barrels are junk. Oh well, their loss. Had they did the investigating I did, they would have never bought the converted rifles, but bought the FT models and saved themselves a pile of money. You don't buy a 12 fpe rifle to shoot it in the Olympics, and you certainly would not buy a stock 10 Meter rifle to win at FT, but to each, their own. I just finished a steel pointer pin for the turret and that should make it a bit easier to align the numbers on the cap. Take care.

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