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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:51 am 
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Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
In the March 2010 issue of Airgun World magazine, there was an article about an Historic HFT match, in which all participants shot airguns ranging from 80 to 100+ years old - vintage pre-war BSA, Webley, and Diana airguns, to name a few. Targets were set out ranging from 6 yards to just under 25 yards, with generous sized kill zones - because all shots were taken from the standing, offhand position. SIghts were whatever the gun came supplied with from the factory, at the time they were manufactured. What a hoot that must have been !!

I suspect that around here, there would be a very limited number of shooters that would have such historic airguns at their disposal to shoot in such a match, but I would be interested in knowing just how many people might be interested in having a match in the same spirit as the one described above, and perhaps break it into two divisions - "historic" and "modern".

Historic division would be any gun manufactured prior to WW2. Modern division would encompass any gun manufactured post WW2. Only OEM sights could be used, whether tangent sights or peep sights - but the gun would have had to come from the factory thus equipped. The modern division could even be sub-divided into "sporter rifle" and "10M match rifle" divisions. No shooting jackets, or other shooting aids allowed - the shooter and the gun - period.
As above, all shots are taken standing, offhand.

If you think this sounds like something you'd be interested in trying, please indicate so, along with what division you might be interested in shooting.

I'll start the ball rolling - I'd love to give historic division a try. :D


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:51 am 
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I love the idea of trying an off-hand shoot, but I don't have the equipment to shoot anything with "OEM sighting" as none of my current rifles came with sights :(
If enough guys have pre-WW2 rifles, I'd enjoy just being a specatator at that match!


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:44 am 
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Location: Greater Napanee, ON, Canada
I certainly would like to shoot in the 10M match gun class with the LGR. I suppose I could also use the MPR turned down in power and use the OEM match sights. Would be great fun either way.

As for watching Pumpmaster, I am sure lots of the guys would loan you a gun with regular open sights or match sights. You could share my gun if you want.

It certainly would be great practice for the standing lanes in FT, which at times turn out to be the "make it or break it" lanes.

Tim

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:07 pm 
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Pumpmaster wrote:
I love the idea of trying an off-hand shoot, but I don't have the equipment to shoot anything with "OEM sighting" as none of my current rifles came with sights :(
If enough guys have pre-WW2 rifles, I'd enjoy just being a specatator at that match!

As Mac notes, you could always pair up with another shooter that does have a suitable gun - much more fun than watching.

You and I could pair up and shoot one of my historic division airguns. How about a 104 year old, 1906 BSA Standard Pattern underlever? :shock:
IIRC, canshooter has a nice, pre-war Diana 27 that would be another potential historic division shooter.

Could be surprizing to see just how many folks might have some of these historic airguns.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 6:23 pm 
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Mac wrote:
You could share my gun if you want.

Suprmatic wrote:
You and I could pair up and shoot one of my historic division airguns. How about a 104 year old, 1906 BSA Standard Pattern underlever? :shock:

Thank you both very much for the offer. Supr, if the historic match happens, I just might have to take you up on that! :o


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:08 pm 
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Location: 'round the corner from "the museum"
I think this looks like a huge pile of fun.

I will however make a small suggestion and a complete outsider with no ability to attend:

-Run the match alongside a PFT match or as a side game to a PFT match. The course layouts would be the same, the target sensitivity requirements should be similar. Then you can be less worried about trying to get enough old guns and shooters to use them together in the same place as a bunch of suitable targets.

Cheers,
Grant


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:13 am 
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grantmac wrote:
I think this looks like a huge pile of fun.

I will however make a small suggestion and a complete outsider with no ability to attend:

-Run the match alongside a PFT match or as a side game to a PFT match. The course layouts would be the same, the target sensitivity requirements should be similar. Then you can be less worried about trying to get enough old guns and shooters to use them together in the same place as a bunch of suitable targets.

Cheers,
Grant

JMO, but it would probably be best to run it as a stand-alone match, rather than try to schedule it alongside a regular FT match.

The time consideration being one concern - it would be a very long day for those that compete in both matches. While the course layouts may be somewhat similar, the ranges and kill zone sizes will vary greatly between the two matches. A regular match will have targets ranging from 10 yards through to 55 yards, with kill zones from 0.250" to 1.5" (or possibly 2"?). The historic/open sight match would have targets ranging from 10 yards through to about 25 yards, with much larger kill zones at the respective distances than would normally be used in a regular match. Thus, it would require pretty much a complete re-setting of the entire course, if done after a regular match. That is why I am trying to see just how many shooters might be interested, and we could hold it as a special event type shoot in addition to the club's regularly scheduled matches.

All suggestions are welcome though - especially if it helps to make the match happen.


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:43 am 
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Quote:
10 yards through to 55 yards, with kill zones from 0.250" to 1.5"

I thought Pistol FT was shot at shorter ranges, and with larger KZ's.... wouldn't that make the suggestion viable?.... JMO....

Bob

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:13 pm 
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rsterne wrote:
Quote:
10 yards through to 55 yards, with kill zones from 0.250" to 1.5"

I thought Pistol FT was shot at shorter ranges, and with larger KZ's.... wouldn't that make the suggestion viable?.... JMO....

Bob

Oops.... :oops: .
You, and Grant were absolutely correct. I completely missed the "P" in "PFT" in Grant's post . (Not once, but twice.. :rolleyes: ) I guess my glasses need cleanin'.... :oops: .

That may be a viable option, but the only caveat might be that some of the historic and modern sporter rifles could exceed the FPE limits of the targets that are used for PFT. The PFTs have been made and set up specifically for low power, and may be damaged if shot at higher energy levels. Thus, it would probably be better to use the regular FTs, but with the reducers adjusted to suit the ranges in use. Those more familiar with the targets in question, would have to make that decision.


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:21 pm 
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I didn't think the historic guns and match rifles were really putting out much FPE? Hence why I was thinking that it could be shot with targets set-up for PFT.

Do they make much more than 10 FPE at the muzzle?

-Grant


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:13 pm 
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grantmac wrote:
I didn't think the historic guns and match rifles were really putting out much FPE? Hence why I was thinking that it could be shot with targets set-up for PFT.

Do they make much more than 10 FPE at the muzzle?

-Grant

Typically, the vintage 10M match rifles are well below 10 FPE, probably closer to around 6 - 7 FPE.
However, some of the old BSA underlevers can probably hit 12+ FPE if they have a healthy mainspring, and some of the modern sporter spring guns can go 15+ fpe.
The PCP Benjamin Disco (with it's OEM open sights), which would fall into the modern division, would have to be turned down to keep it below 20 FPE.


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Location: 'round the corner from "the museum"
Suprmatic wrote:
grantmac wrote:
I didn't think the historic guns and match rifles were really putting out much FPE? Hence why I was thinking that it could be shot with targets set-up for PFT.

Do they make much more than 10 FPE at the muzzle?

-Grant

Typically, the vintage 10M match rifles are well below 10 FPE, probably closer to around 6 - 7 FPE.
However, some of the old BSA underlevers can probably hit 12+ FPE if they have a healthy mainspring, and some of the modern sporter spring guns can go 15+ fpe.
The PCP Benjamin Disco (with it's OEM open sights), which would fall into the modern division, would have to be turned down to keep it below 20 FPE.


I think allowing modern guns that generate those power levels will be a problem any way you look at it then. But I don't make targets.

As far as I knew the PFT targets were of the same construction but are adjusted to fall with a lighter strike to the CZ, so durability shouldn't be an issue.

-Grant


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:52 am 
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sounds interesting- but what about rifles without iron sights?

'cause i'd be interested,as i'm consistently hitting bullseye give or take 3 click rings at 25 feet with my crappy Beeman, no scope or red dot.

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:29 am 
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djmay71 wrote:
sounds interesting- but what about rifles without iron sights?

'cause i'd be interested,as i'm consistently hitting bullseye give or take 3 click rings at 25 feet with my crappy Beeman, no scope or red dot.


Is your Beeman a pre-war model?
:axe:

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:30 pm 
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Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
djmay71 wrote:
sounds interesting- but what about rifles without iron sights?
'cause i'd be interested,as i'm consistently hitting bullseye give or take 3 click rings at 25 feet with my crappy Beeman, no scope or red dot.

HUH? :?
No iron sights, no scope, no red dot - what are you aiming with? What are the "3 click rings" on?
lh wrote:
Is your Beeman a pre-war model?

It wouldn't have to be, if used in the "modern division".


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