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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:56 pm 
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I had some time to tear the side plates off the two pistols and do some comparisons. Here is a list of similarities and differences that I noticed. This list only shows that the pistols are not mirror images of one another. However, they are very close in appearance.

- My HW40 weighs 1 lb 11.6oz and my P17 weighs 1 lb 11.0oz.
- P17 has a "F" pentagon on the left side of frame (behind fake slide release). The HW40 does not have the symbol.
- The pistols have a slightly different shape on the end of the groove at the end of the seven indents near the muzzle.
- P17 has a wider indentation on sides of grip (Walther P22 style indent).
- Trigger, mock hammer, and safety on HW40 are aircraft aluminum. P17 is a plated metal (chromed?).
- Mock slide release has a larger fake pin on P17.
- Very slight difference in "slide release" button.
- Long ridge under front of lower frame is tapered on HW40 and straight on P17 (flows from trigger guard).
- HW40 has more pronounced stops for rear sight elevation and windage adjustments.
- HW40 has 2.5mm set screw for cross pin lock (compression chamber pin). P17 screw is 2.0mm.
- HW40 has bevel on breech end of barrel. P17 does not have the barrel chamfer.
- Both pistols have full length metal frame inserts that appear to be the same thickness.
- Piston rod lock screw on HW40 sits in recessed hole (below surface). P17 screw sticks out of hole.
- Pump rod, pistons, and compression tubes are within .003" difference.
- Grip screws are the same.
- HW40 has shiny internal metal parts in grip (with black lube I added). Parts appear to be stainless steel. P17 has blued steel parts with brown lubricant on the hammer. Brown lube wipes off with oil to expose the blued steel.
- P17 has blued nut on bottom of blued valve stem. HW40 has what appears to be a stainless steel stem with integrated bottom disc.
- Hammer springs and sear springs are same wire thickness (.062" & .039")
- Trigger adjustment screws are both 2.0mm.
- Triggers can both be adjusted to a crisp and light release. My HW40 has seen over 20,000 shots so the trigger is very smooth and approx one pound in weight.
- I tried switching grip panels but neither would fit. The proper panels easily push into place. The screw holes match up but the grips won't push into place.

I'm not interested in risking the fit and finish by attempting to swap out each part in each pistol to check for function/fit. The internal parts appear to be the same thickness and very close in shape. My guess is that the P17 parts may work in the HW40 (fitting may be necessary). The parts work fine in the pistols they came in.

The above items are just a point of interest and do not effect velocity or accuracy.

Cheers,
Todd


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:08 pm 
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The following numbers came from my old green Chrony. When compared to other chronographs, this example is always about 10 fps fast. It needs to be recalibrated.

Velocity Results

Weihrauch HW40
JSB Exact (8.4 gr) - 400, 397, 400, 398, 397
RWS Hobby (7.0gr) - 418, 418, 419, 419, 419
Beeman Crow Mag (8.8gr) - 379, 372, 376, 372, 376
RWS Meister (8.2 gr) - 389, 392, 392, 389, 390
RWS Super-H-Pt (7.4 gr) - 403, 403, 403, 400, 401
Crosman Supermatch (7.9gr) - 401, 404, 403, 400, 399
JSB Match (7.3gr) - 422, 420, 419, 419, 422

Beeman P17
JSB Exact (8.4gr) - 399, 402, 403, 401, 400
RWS Hobby (7.0gr) - 425, 429, 422, 427, 428
Beeman Crow mag (8.8gr) - 386, 381, 395, 384, 388
RWS Meister (8.2gr) - 406, 409, 406, 408, 409
RWS Super-H-Pt (7.4gr) -404, 407, 404, 407, 406
Crosman Supermatch (7.9gr) - 410, 408, 410, 412, 411
JSB Match (7.3gr) - 422, 420, 419, 419, 422

One last test with JSB Exact
P17 - 404, 402, 404, 401, 406
HW40 - 397, 397, 397, 396, 397

The JSB Exact and RWS SHP both seem to fit the pistols about the same. A very slight push was needed to seat these pellets flush. The shorter Crosman Supermatch were a sloppy fit in the P17 but fit well in the HW40. The Hobby, Meister and JSB Match were a loose fit in the P17.

My HW40 prefers a pellet that requires a very slight push to seat. Too much push will reduce velocity. A sloppy fit has never given me good/consistent accuracy in this pistol. The Crosman Premier and JSB Exact were top performers when I last tested the HW40. These pellets required the push to seat. A fast shooting, sloppy fitting, unaccurate pellet isn't what I want. If the P17 prefers the same "push to seat" pellet fit then the Exact and SHP might rise to the top for accuracy. We will see.

Cheers,
Todd


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:56 pm 
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The HW40 is at the top. The P17 is the lower pistol.

Image

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:57 am 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
I answered this "rear sight question" on another forum so I thought I would post the info here so we have the info for reference.
------------------------------------------

I removed the rear sight vertical adjustment screws and springs. Here is what I found out:

- Metal rear sight ramp on HW40 is .365"-.368" wide and .144"-.146" thick
- Metal rear sight ramp on P17 is .362"-.365" wide and .143"-.145" thick
- The distances between the pivot pin and vertical screw hole appears to be the same. I didn't want to dive out the pins but I did a check with calipers.
- The vertical adjustment nut on the HW40 frame fits flush in it's recess.
- The vertical adjustment nut on the P17 sticks out from the frame (no deep recess). This is why the P17 screw is longer.
- The vertical adjustment screws are the same approx diameter (within .002"D) and same head size but they have different thread coarseness.
- The P17 screw has coarser threads and the screws & nuts are not interchangable. The exterior of the P17 nut is also wider and will not fit in the HW40 recess.
- The P17's coarse screw threads might contribute to the complaints about the rear sight going out of adjustment.
- The "click stops" on the rear sight vertical adjustment are due to notches in the bottom of the screw head. The HW40 has deeper and wider notches which explains why it secures the adjustment better.
- The HW40's fine screw threads and deeper/wider adjustment notches hold the sight securely.
- The rear sight springs appear to be the same.

I think the HW40 rear sight will fit on the P17. The measurements seem to be very close. The P17 vertical adjuster screw would have to be used or maybe a new screw with finer threads could be found. The HW40 screw would be too short.

Cheers,
Todd


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Thanks, Todd,
Are you gonna to compare the pump arm and the value assemblies as well? My quest for answers is never ending.


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Hung2 wrote:
Thanks, Todd,
Are you gonna to compare the pump arm and the value assemblies as well? My quest for answers is never ending.


When I get some time, I may disassemble the valve but I'll likely wait until I get leakage and then do all the seals at once. The valve is quite simple. A stem , a spring, o-rings and a threaded brass plug. The P17 has a blued steel stem and the HW40 seems to have stainless. The pump arm diameter is the same on the pistols. Gauging by the similar velocity, the internal volume should be the same or very close. The "Pump rod, pistons, and compression tubes are within .003" difference".

You can see some good pics and info at these links. The author has put a lot of time into the document.
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2 ... art-1.html
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2 ... inale.html
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2 ... n-p17.html

Cheers,
Todd


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:54 pm 
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May be I just have to convince me that the P17 is really no difference than the P3, other than those minor things as noted such as the seal. I have not seen or come into contact with Chinese made airguns for a long time. It's about time that my attitude should change. Thanks once again.


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:25 pm 
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Hung2 wrote:
May be I just have to convince me that the P17 is really no difference than the P3, other than those minor things as noted such as the seal. I have not seen or come into contact with Chinese made airguns for a long time. It's about time that my attitude should change. Thanks once again.


The "function" of the HW40 and P17 are the same. The Chinese version seems to have some minor differences but the important factors will be the accuracy and durability. I can't really comment on either yet.

Cheers,
Todd


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:29 pm 
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The P17 lasted about 50 shots. I just finished shooting a few 5 shot groups and the trigger jammed on the 4th group. I tried adjusting the screw to both extremes and had no luck. The trigger functions fine if I pull it quickly. If I use a slow pull, it stops/jams at the back and the pistol won't fire. Sometimes it will act like a "release trigger" and fire after I relax the pull. This is not the first time I have heard of this problem with the P17/M2006/M2004 pistols. I'm not sure if there is a burr, or a bent part, or whatever. I removed the sideplate for a quick look and all looks okay.

Has anyone here dealt with this problem? I would return it but I bought the pistol from KMart in the USA (300km from here).

Accuracy was starting to look quite good with JSB Exact pellets. One of the groups was a ragged dime size hole and I was using a red dot rather than a scope. Too bad the pistol wasn't reliable. My HW40 went 5.5 years before needing a small part. After another 5.5 years. it's still working fine.

One other observation was the trigger creep. My HW40 was never this creeping and I think the pull was lighter when new. My HW40 is almost like a target trigger after being shot for 11 years. It releases at a crisp one pound. The P17 trigger will likely improve if it can be fixed.

I'm still having hope for the P17. "Velocity" is on par with the German made version and "accuracy" was starting to look good. I hope it can be fixed.

Cheers,
Todd


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Location: Whitby, Ontario
I have 2 of them. I bought them about 6 months apart and from different stores. I've never encountered that trigger problem. IIRC I bought the first one about 2 years ago.

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:00 pm 
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I am not trying to knock down on the Chinese guns and I guess it is a hit and miss situation with them regarding durability. You get what you paid for, and you are just an unlucky one. Sorry Todd, i got you into doing this and now you are $40/50 bucks down the drain.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:45 pm 
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You just saved me some 50/60 bucks.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:06 pm 
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I have had trigger problems with my P17 also. Some times it won't fire and I have to pull the trigger several times. I found if I put some fresh lube on the trigger parts it works for a while but have not been able to find the cause. I haven't adjusted the trigger because I like the way it releases. I have about 1200 pellets through this gun and no other problems. Ihave a red dot on it and find the gun more accurate than the shooter. It is also around 400 on the crony. I am thinking of buying another one because I enjoy shooting it and don't have to buy CO2 or pump more than once.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:44 pm 
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Location: SW Ontario
Todd

Excellent comparison, I knew there had to be some diferences other than the money and place of manufacture. Ive handled the copies and have found that even my HW40 that is 10 years old is in a better state. The over leaver lock up when closed is much tighter on mine than a new copy. Thanks for convincing me all those years ago to buy that new plastic pistol from Weihrauch. it is still my favorite, Other than changing the piston seal 2 years ago ive never had to take it apart or maintain it all as a mater of fact, and the velocity is still 415 with hoby.

Good stuff.

IanC

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Don’t sell your guns, they just turn into money and disappear.
-An actual quote from my loving wife-


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:44 am 
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I think I figured out the trigger problem. At first I followed a suggestion and checked the springs. I polished the sharp end on the hammer spring (#2440) and repositioned it in the hammer (#2439). This was a good suggestion but did not seem to help. Then I got looking at the parts again. Part #2435 (lever) seemed to be slightly out of position. The end of this lever butts up against the trigger. The lever seemed to be pushed back in the frame so the end of the trigger adjustment screw would not quite have contact with the lever (no second stage pull). I simply moved the part upwards a bit, using a small screwdriver. All seems well again. Part #2441 (distance plate) might need a little squeeze if the lever drops out of place again. If I still have grief, a very small/thin washer could also be used to space the lever properly but I think the "distance plate" is for that purpose. Possibly it was me who pushed this piece of out position when I was re-assembling the last time.

http://my.tbaytel.net/coopers/HW40Revie ... RTSDIAGRAM

I thought I would share this simple fix in case someone else has the problem.

Cheers,
Todd


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