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 Post subject: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:50 pm 
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I would like to know if the stock in this photo is legal for Hunter Field Target (assuming the adjutable butt plate is set at the "standard" height)....

Image

Thanks....

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:58 pm 
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I cannot see any reason for that stock being disallowed in Hunter FT. If the butt plate is set to neutral as you said, it's good to go.

Bob, what action will be going in that stock? It sure is a nice looking stock. I am currently keeping an eye out for CS1000 FT stock for my TX. That one looks similar.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Mac wrote:
I cannot see any reason for that stock being disallowed in Hunter FT. If the butt plate is set to neutral as you said, it's good to go.

Bob, what action will be going in that stock? It sure is a nice looking stock. I am currently keeping an eye out for CS1000 FT stock for my TX. That one looks similar.



Its a Maccari TX stock....
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33980

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:37 pm 
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I spotted that thread just after I responded to Bob. Nice stock. I'll keep looking.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:28 pm 
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I know that in many events a thumbhole is just a no no. I think the idea is that the hand can support the stock but the stock cannot support the hand.

I've started taking closer "stock" of theses points..... :mrgreen: Because I want to start making stocks.

Also the pistol grip cannot be canted even slightly.

I am actually considering making a full blown cheat..that is to say a stock that incorporates every prohibited feature...heck maybe even a stabilizing gyro if I can get one.

I have a concept of a tiger shark shaped stock with the cheek piece shaped like a dorsal fin, the butt hook shaped like a fish tail, the shark's mouth accommodating your left four fingers as a palm rest and full wrap around hand support for the right hand just about where the gills would be...all of the hand cavity ergonomic.

I have a nice chunk of Australian lace wood that would look like scales when sanded up.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:29 pm 
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HI Mac....

My question is because this is a replacement stock that has a knee riser built in.... I don't wish to re-open old wounds.... but it looks to me like if you purchase a ready made aftermarket stock with a built in riser that is OK.... but don't make your own.... :roll:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.... :twisted:

BTW.... what happened with the rule review that was supposed to occur over the winter on this issue?.... I never heard any more about it....

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Why not use hunting rigs for hunter field target?

nice enough stock but I think the idea of a hunting gun is long gone with stocks like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:46 pm 
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Bob, that is a one piece stock. There is no attached knee riser there. The EV2 that was in question before has an attached knee riser that would have to be removed. The rule states this clearly.

We made no changes to the rules in the off season. An attached or separate knee riser is not allowed in HFT.

Walter, not everyone has a hunting rig. The rules allow for this and with the restrictions, it seems to keep things fairly level. I think the most expensive rifle that has won a hunter match is a 400 action Air Arm with no built in or any type of riser, which, by the way, are excellent hunting guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:01 am 
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Mac wrote:
Bob, that is a one piece stock. There is no attached knee riser there. The EV2 that was in question before has an attached knee riser that would have to be removed. The rule states this clearly.

We made no changes to the rules in the off season. An attached or separate knee riser is not allowed in HFT.

Walter, not everyone has a hunting rig. The rules allow for this and with the restrictions, it seems to keep things fairly level. I think the most expensive rifle that has won a hunter match is a 400 action Air Arm with no built in or any type of riser, which, by the way, are excellent hunting guns.


as the stock Bob posted here is a aftermarket unit it indeed has a knee riser built into it.
So not sure how that would be okay?

I am of the opinion that Hunter Field Target is a game to encourage the use of hunting guns and the expanded audience that affords.
Anyways it just doesn't sit all that well with me but not having had a chance yet to play my opinion is likely unfounded.

no changes to the rules? was that not going to happen?

Cheers,
Walter....

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:07 am 
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Voltar1 wrote:
Mac wrote:

Walter, not everyone has a hunting rig. The rules allow for this and with the restrictions, it seems to keep things fairly level. I think the most expensive rifle that has won a hunter match is a 400 action Air Arm with no built in or any type of riser, which, by the way, are excellent hunting guns.




I am of the opinion that Hunter Field Target is a game to encourage the use of hunting guns and the expanded audience that affords.
Anyways it just doesn't sit all that well with me

Cheers,
Walter....


I couldn't agree with Walter more!! 8) There is no way that someone should be allowed to use an AA 400 setup worth over $1000,00 bucks in Hunter division :roll: . Totally defeats the purpose of the division in my opinion. And will over a period of time, as more people buy the expensive Target Guns to stay competitive in that division. End up driving the newer less well heeled shooters away as they can't afford the price of being competitive in what should be an introduction to FT shooting Division. Not HardCore. Will turn into an arms race totally defeating the purpose of Hunter Class. Seen the same thing happen in too many other sports where someone could get the easy edge by throwing more money at it. I believe the same thing happenned on the Vancouver Island, 20 or so years ago with their FT club. 20 or so members that turned into "a my rig is more expensive than your rig competition". Some members couldn't keep up so said to hell with it. Others who could afford it just didn't see the point and quit. Was the end of the club.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:57 am 
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scruffie wrote:
Voltar1 wrote:
Mac wrote:

Walter, not everyone has a hunting rig. The rules allow for this and with the restrictions, it seems to keep things fairly level. I think the most expensive rifle that has won a hunter match is a 400 action Air Arm with no built in or any type of riser, which, by the way, are excellent hunting guns.




I am of the opinion that Hunter Field Target is a game to encourage the use of hunting guns and the expanded audience that affords.
Anyways it just doesn't sit all that well with me

Cheers,
Walter....


I couldn't agree with Walter more!! 8) There is no way that someone should be allowed to use an AA 400 setup worth over $1000,00 bucks in Hunter division :roll: . Totally defeats the purpose of the division in my opinion. And will over a period of time, as more people buy the expensive Target Guns to stay competitive in that division. End up driving the newer less well heeled shooters away as they can't afford the price of being competitive in what should be an introduction to FT shooting Division. Not HardCore. Will turn into an arms race totally defeating the purpose of Hunter Class. Seen the same thing happen in too many other sports where someone could get the easy edge by throwing more money at it. I believe the same thing happenned on the Vancouver Island, 20 or so years ago with their FT club. 20 or so members that turned into "a my rig is more expensive than your rig competition". Some members couldn't keep up so said to hell with it. Others who could afford it just didn't see the point and quit. Was the end of the club.


Thanks Scruffie,
my opinion is the well heeled can go buy a QB or something and compete in HFT.
cheers,

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:12 am 
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HI Mac....

I really don't want to start this whole thing again.... but once again, the idea of a level playing field in HFT is being brought into question.... You are well aware of the fact that I was FORCED to change my .177 PCP HFT because in the opinion of CAFTA the original forestock was a knee riser.... I repeatedly asked for a dimension for a forestock that would be considered legal and was repeatedly told to use the original parts (there are none) and bolt them together as closely as possible (even though I had to fabricate custom mounts to do that).... At one point I asked if the forestock could be a piece of 2x4 on edge bolted directly to the tube and that question was simply ignored....

Now this stock comes along.... an AFTERMARKET piece that obviously has a knee riser built in.... and it's "sure, no problem".... :shock:

Although I was assured that the knee riser rules would be addressed over the winter.... nothing was done.... The rules are still just as confusing as they have always been.... and it is more clear than ever that the CAFTA board.... although obviously embarrased by the whole situation over my gun.... rather than resolve it, simply dug in their heels and "interpreted" the rules to their own liking.... What they should have done was to rewrite them so that they were both easily understandable (without any interpretation needed).... and FAIR TO ALL regardless of whether they could afford an expensive gun (which already incorporated a knee riser) or wanted to build one which gave them no advantage over what guns (or stocks, in this case) are allowed.... If some knee risers ARE allowed.... whether incorporated into the stock or not.... the rules need to include a dimension as to how deep that can be.... I see no other way to make it fair for all.... Simply allowing a one-piece stock while not allowing a two-piece stock (as in a 22XX) is not acceptable....

I happen to agree with Voltar1 and scruffie about what type of guns should be allowed for HFT.... and the current configuration of my gun meets that criteria completely.... It just really irks me that my gun was dismissed out of hand and yet this stock is allowed.... There is NO logic in it.... and the rules need changing.... What is more of a "hunting" gun.... my 6 lb. 22XX converson?.... or a 13 lb. custom?....

Yours in the sport....

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:04 am 
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With all due respect gentlemen, for guys who aren't involved in any of the FT matches we shoot it seems quite unfair you cast such judgements without having any personal knowledge of the spirit of our matches.

I was the guy who won some Hunter matches with an S410. How did that happen? Let me explain.

I started shooting FT with a QB and Leapers scope, as it was the best "budget" setup available to me at the time. After shooting a few matches and meeting a group of awesome guys who had such a passion for airgunning, I was hooked.
While shooting these matches I learned a lot, and the limitations of my setup started becoming very apparent. I also started worrying about the safety level of my extended airtube on the QB.
The Discovery wasn't yet available, and all of these regulated HPA bottles weren't being used at the time.
I started saving some money, and watching the For Sale forum to upgrade my rifle to something I felt would perform better, and remove any concerns I had about safety.
Another forum member put the S410 up for sale, and I jumped at the chance to own such a beautiful rifle at almost half price.
Since the S410 was a .22 and had a 10 shot magazine, it seemed the perfect hunting rifle. I could dial down the power from 32ftlbs to about 18 so I could continue learning how to shoot HFT. I bolted up the same Leapers scope that was on my QB, and continued to shoot the season.

Because I was allowed to "grow up" in the HFT division, I am now a very avid WFTF shooter who is hoping to represent Canada in the US Nationals.
You guys want LESS restrictive rules so you can use whatever stock you want, but want MORE restrictive rules on what rifles can be used, based solely on retail price. I can guarantee you I had less $$$ in that used S410 than a bunch of guys have into modified QBs or 22XX platforms. I can also guarantee you that in the hands of an inexperienced shooter, an S410 doesn't "buy" you very many points.


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:05 am 
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rsterne wrote:

I happen to agree with Voltar1 and scruffie about what type of guns should be allowed for HFT.... and the current configuration of my gun meets that criteria completely.... It just really irks me that my gun was dismissed out of hand and yet this stock is allowed.... There is NO logic in it.... and the rules need changing.... What is more of a "hunting" gun.... my 6 lb. 22XX converson?.... or a 13 lb. custom?....

Yours in the sport....

Bob


It's a fact that yours has actually been used to hunt and from previous Pics posted, probably taken far more Tasty Grouse. 8) And you won't mourn when you get a few dings and nicks in her as actual hunting rifles are bound to get. A day banging around in my Argo or your Side by side and actually getting some blood on them tends to take its toll on the furniture. :wink:
I have no problem monetarily with going out tommorrow and purchasing a S400 variant and 6400 scope. But there is no way that I would ever use it in Hunters Division as I think it totally goes against the spirit of the Sport and Division.

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:43 am 
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rsterne wrote:
HI Mac....

I really don't want to start this whole thing again....

Yours in the sport....

Bob


That's good to hear. I am tired of defending something that is working so well. After modifications to bring your gun in line with the rules, all seemed well; you even admitted you were more pleased with the aesthetics of the new arrangement.

At present, the only problems that exist with rules and matches are in the minds and imaginations of folks who as of yet have not had the pleasure of participating, There are no real problems that actually exist, so we are dealing with realities and as new realities appear, we will deal with them. Our matches are fun, fair and competitive; that is the reality.

If some of you feel that it is your duty to criticize the efforts of CAFTA, so be it. I will stand by what we have developed and continue to work to make it better, but I am not going to get involved in justifying and defending something that in reality does not need to be justified or defended. I am simply going to enjoy it.

I hope many of you will soon have the good fortune of participating in field target.

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