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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:47 pm
Posts: 1726
Location: canada
rsterne wrote:
I still require an answer about the legality of the stock drawing...

Come out to a match and shoot with me. I won't even have a problem if Walter and Scruffie are helping you hold the friggin' thing! Are you sure it was the Arms Race that drove people away from FT in BC like you describe? Or did they lose interest because of the bickering? Yeh the rules are in place and may need tweeking down the road. I'll let you in on a little secret though...I've witnessed people at matches breaking the rules, using unauthourized equipment, changing magnifications on scopes and down right cheating! No one went running up to them screaming or even pointed it out when they ended up winning a medal! Bob, I understand where you're coming from as things can seem confusing but just bring what you got and come out to a match. All the negativity about the rules will disappear and you'll probably answer your own questions once you've actually met everyone and shot a match!

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:19 pm
Posts: 8936
Location: Coalmont BC
I can only assume that the CAFTA Board will not give a ruling on the drawing I posted above because it meets the letter of the rules.... but doesn't meet what they consider to be the "spirit" of the rules.... I understand that places them in an awkward situation....

For all those following this thread.... please understand that my only purpose is to get CAFTA to recognize that simple fact.... and to bring it to the attention of the forum members.... How they resolve it.... or if they choose to ignore it.... is totally up to them....

In my vast experience in various forms of competition over my 60+ years.... almost every set of rules has a "grey area" or outright loophole in it.... There are only three sensible ways for a serious competitor to deal with that situation....

1. You can exploit the loophole yourself and take the flack at the event because all your competitors think you are a cheat.... only to be aghast when the governing body supports you (assuming you interpreted the loophole correctly).... I have done this at a World Championship (which my boat won).... I would not choose that route again....

2. You can contact the governing body and make sure that the loophole (as you interpret it) is closed.... before one of your competitors uses it against you.... This is usually done by issuing an interim rule interpretation to all members and then the rule is changed at the earliest opportunity....

3. You can make the governing body aware of the issue before showing up to compete.... so that the issue is dealt with fairly before it becomes a problem at an event.... This is the route I chose to take BEFORE I built my .177 PCP HFT (by asking questions before construction and getting what I thought was an interpretation which was later changed).... and what I have been trying to do ever since.... This course of action usually leads to the same results as #2. above....

I have NEVER before run into a governing body that fails to act and prefers to ignore the problem.... Can you imagine the situation if a skilled shooter was to appear at the National Championships with a stock as per my drawing?.... I shudder to think.... IMO it would be impossible for the Match Director to go against what is apparently the rules.... that if it is a one piece stock, anything goes.... I give as my proof, the photo of the aftermarket stock in the first post in this thread which CAFTA considers legal for HFT.... In simple terms, you can't be a little bit pregnant.... If one stock which incorporates a knee riser as part of the design is legal.... they all are.... :roll:

I make this my final appeal to the CAFTA Board to consider the path they are on.... Every one on this entire forum may think I am an idiot and should just shut up.... That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am.... My bet is, each and every person who is so steadfastly defending the existing rules would be very choked if one of their serious competitors showed up with what they considered to be a "cheater" stock in HFT and won the event.... I further wager that the scramble would then be on to change the rules....

I sincerely hope I am never in the position to say "I told you so!"....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:24 pm
Posts: 781
Location: Lower Newtown PEI
MAUSER wrote:
I know that in many events a thumbhole is just a no no. I think the idea is that the hand can support the stock but the stock cannot support the hand.

I've started taking closer "stock" of theses points..... :mrgreen: Because I want to start making stocks.

Also the pistol grip cannot be canted even slightly.

I am actually considering making a full blown cheat..that is to say a stock that incorporates every prohibited feature...heck maybe even a stabilizing gyro if I can get one.

I have a concept of a tiger shark shaped stock with the cheek piece shaped like a dorsal fin, the butt hook shaped like a fish tail, the shark's mouth accommodating your left four fingers as a palm rest and full wrap around hand support for the right hand just about where the gills would be...all of the hand cavity ergonomic.

I have a nice chunk of Australian lace wood that would look like scales when sanded up.


Now just so you don't go away thinking that what I have advocated is totally unfair....such a gun as I describe used to be called "free rifle" and it was assumed that you would be shooting it standing offhand at a distance that tested mastery.... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Location: Southern Ontario
rsterne wrote:
I sincerely hope I am never in the position to say "I told you so!"....
Bob
Really? Because your rants would lead some to believe that is all you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
Quote:
your rants would lead some to believe that is all you want.

That shows how little you understand about me.... What I want is for the CAFTA Board to fix the problem before it becomes an embarrassment for them.... like they said they would do back in January....

That comment rates right up there with the accusation originally made that I wanted to "market" my .177 PCP HFT gun.... :roll:

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
I may as well throw my two cents in here, FWIW..... :| .

As Mac stated:
Quote:
The CAFTA Governors will continue to respond to the needs of actual participating HFT shooters.

Based upon my own personal experience over the the last 4 years or so, that statement is without question, a statement of absolute fact.

In the few years that I have resumed actively shooting FT matches, I have seen, first hand, many changes and clarifications of the CAFTA rules take place. These changes/clarifications were not done whimsically, but over the course of time, so that the end results would be logical, and rational.

We must also remember that the CAFTA governors are ordinary people that are graciously contributing their time to a sport that they enjoy, and promote so that others may also participate. These people have families, jobs, and lives outside the hobby as well. Thus, it really is unfair of someone who has never attended a match, and quite possibly never will, to criticise their efforts based soley on one's own lack of understanding of the rules, or their intent.

Most, if not all the CAFTA governors have attended National and International FT matches, and as a result, are familiar with the rules and issues that other FT organizations around the world are dealing with. CAFTA has to keep up with details of these issues, and respond to them in one way or another, as it may apply to Canadian FT. Certainly no easy task. Thus, it is not hard to understand why CAFTA would not feel compelled to address what is essentially a non-issue everywhere but here on the CAF.

I for one, think that the CAFTA governors are doing a terrific job, and as the sport progresses over time, so will the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
rsterne wrote:
(assuming you interpreted the loophole correctly)....

....the loophole (as you interpret it)

BEFORE I built my .177 PCP HFT (by asking questions before construction and getting what I thought was an interpretation which was later changed)....

And therein lies the problem Bob - your interpretation is incorrect, yet you refuse to accept that as an answer.
There were no changes made to the description given you before you started work on your HFT rifle, nor after - it was your interpretation of the information provided that caused the problem, and apparently, continues to be a point of contention.


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 am
Posts: 2099
Location: Southern Ontario
rsterne wrote:
That shows how little you understand about me.... What I want is for the CAFTA Board to fix the problem before it becomes an embarrassment for them....
What you want is to be told you're right. If you had any true interest in helping the CAFTA board you would be discussing this professionally via PM, email or on the phone. Throwing a temper tantrum on a public forum is not conducive to helping anybody. The only one who should be embarrassed is you.


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:19 pm
Posts: 8936
Location: Coalmont BC
Quote:
Throwing a temper tantrum

Please explain what in my posts you find offensive, rude, or otherwise indicitive that I have lost my temper.... I have nothing to be ashamed of....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:19 pm
Posts: 8936
Location: Coalmont BC
Quote:
your interpretation is incorrect, yet you refuse to accept that as an answer

HI Len.... You know I have the greatest respect for your ability and knowledge both in machining and airguns.... I would be very interested in how YOU would interpret the rules regarding the drawing I posted at the top of page 2 of this thread.... I am still waiting for CAFTA to rule on the legality of that stock for use in HFT....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:52 pm
Posts: 7089
Location: Vancouver Island BC
Pumpmaster wrote:
rsterne wrote:
That shows how little you understand about me.... What I want is for the CAFTA Board to fix the problem before it becomes an embarrassment for them....
What you want is to be told you're right. If you had any true interest in helping the CAFTA board you would be discussing this professionally via PM, email or on the phone. Throwing a temper tantrum on a public forum is not conducive to helping anybody. The only one who should be embarrassed is you.



Quote:
Throwing a temper tantrum on a public forum is not conducive to helping anybody. The only one who should be embarrassed is you.
[/quote]

I don't see a temper tantrum as a matter of fact i find your reply's to Bob's post's rude......... If you find Bob's post offensive don't read them ............


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
rsterne wrote:
Quote:
your interpretation is incorrect, yet you refuse to accept that as an answer

HI Len.... You know I have the greatest respect for your ability and knowledge both in machining and airguns.... I would be very interested in how YOU would interpret the rules regarding the drawing I posted at the top of page 2 of this thread.... I am still waiting for CAFTA to rule on the legality of that stock for use in HFT....

Bob

Well, based upon the stated criteria in the rules,
Quote:
Knee risers (separate and/or adjustable).......will not be allowed in the Hunter Division

I would say that the stock shown in that pic should be good to go for HFT.
IMO, no interpretation required. It has neither a separate knee riser, nor an adjustable knee riser.


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
Quote:
I would say that the stock shown in that pic should be good to go for HFT.

I happen to agree with your interpretation.... So just for a minute, let's talk about FAIRNESS.... Why would then the identical stock, made of two separate pieces, be illegal?.... or would they be legal?.... How about if it were made entirely of aluminum and welded together?.... How about bolted together?.... I'm still talking about only two pieces, not adjustable, simply fastened securely together....

What about the identical profile, glued up out of wood.... laminate for example?.... or maybe with the vertical part at the front with the grain going vertical for strength, fastened by glued mortise and tenon or doweled?....

I hope you see my point.... :mrgreen:

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:03 pm
Posts: 5330
Location: home of the Marshville Festival, Ontario, Canada
rsterne wrote:
Quote:
I would say that the stock shown in that pic should be good to go for HFT.

I happen to agree with your interpretation.... So just for a minute, let's talk about FAIRNESS.... Why would then the identical stock, made of two separate pieces, be illegal?.... How about if it were made entirely of aluminum and welded together?.... How about bolted together?.... I'm still talking about only two pieces, not adjustable, simply fastened securely together....

What about the identical profile, glued up out of wood.... laminate for example?.... or maybe with the vertical part at the front with the grain going vertical for strength, fastended by glued mortise and tenon or doweled?....

I hope you see my point.... :mrgreen:

Bob

Actually, Bob, what I see is someone now grasping at straws to justify his own misinterpretation of the rules. :roll:

But, lets play this out. :wink:

How about if it were made entirely of aluminum and welded together?....
Upon welding the stock together, it essentially becomes one piece, and therefore fits the criteria of not having a separate or adjustable knee riser.

How about bolted together?.... I'm still talking about only two pieces, not adjustable, simply fastened securely together....
By sheer virtue of the fact that it is using removeable fasteners, the knee riser now becomes both separate and adjustable. It matters not how you try to deflect from that fact, it is now an "add on", and has the potential to be removed, or adjusted. This is exactly why your original HFT 22xx was deemed to be in contravention of the rules.

What about the identical profile, glued up out of wood.... laminate for example?.... or maybe with the vertical part at the front with the grain going vertical for strength, fastended by glued mortise and tenon or doweled?....
Once again, upon being glued up, (not unlike the welded assembly) and without the presence of removeable fasteners, the stock is essentially one piece, therefore fitting the criteria of not having a separate or adjustable knee rest.

So getting back to your "fairness" comment, do you really think that it is fair of you to make some of the inflamatory statements that you have, about CAFTA, when the whole issue here is that you still refuse to accept that two or more pieces bolted together with removeable fasteners constitutes a separate or adjustable assembly?


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 Post subject: Re: Stock OK for HFT?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:32 pm 
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Quote:
upon being glued up, (not unlike the welded assembly) and without the presence of removeable fasteners

You know.... I wish this had been explained as simply and clearly last January.... All I needed to do was to glue the plastic part of the forestock to the aluminum mount and it would have been fine.... as then the forestock would be one piece.... Obviously, the stock can be bolted to the gun.... every stock is.... Two piece stocks are obviously legal as well (separate buttstock and forestock).... many guns have them....

I don't think I have defamed CAFTA at all.... and if I have, I sincerely apologize....

I am still of the opinion that the rules should be changed so that none of these designs are allowed in HFT.... The fact that the aftermarket stock I posted in the beginning of this thread.... or the one that I drew.... are legal for HFT seems silly and easily preventable.... That is entirely another argument, of course....

Thanks for your help....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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