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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:17 pm 
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I was wondering what exactly the 500 FPS rule is. Can I take a non pal gun ie HW97 or HW98 put a spring kit in it. Use 18g or heavier pellets and detune it so it shoots only those pellets at less than 500 FPS ? Would that be a legal rig ?

I figure if I can't hit the center of the target I might have a chance to knock it over anyway.


Jeff.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Here's how it was explained in the Email that was sent out...

The Port Colborne FT Club is going to bump the date of the Annual Elmer Fudd Hunter match up by a month. It will be on Saturday, October 2, 2010 and will be the last scheduled event of this season at the Port Club.

The format will be all hunter style with all applicable rules, the same as usual, but all guns must be non-pal guns. A pal gun that has the power turned down to sub pal levels cannot be used. Also, just because a gun is not registered a gun does not necessarily make it a non-pal gun. Guns specifically designated for the Canadian market as non-pal and guns shooting below the maximum pal energy and velocity levels that have never had an FRT number are acceptable.

Because some may not have a rifle that meets these criteria, we will also allow the use of pistols that meet the rules for Pistol Field target. You may shoot it as a pistol in a Pistol Division, or you may choose to put a rifle stock on it and shoot it as a carbine rifle. Classes for pistol will be determined by the number of entries we have in each category. If we have three or more entrants in a particular class we will separate that class and have an award for it. So there is a possibility of five classes in total. For Hunter Division rifle, we will separate iron sights from scoped guns if we have at least three of each. The same would be true in Pistol Division for iron sights, red dots and scoped guns

We will have a 60 or 68 shot match on 15 or 17 lanes. The maximum distance will be 35 yards and the minimum 10 yards. No kill zone will be smaller than one inch. All scoring will be done with two points for a knock down, one point for a target hit and zero for a complete miss of the target.

After the match, while scores are being tallied, we will have chili and Italian break for all competitors. There will also be hot drinks available as well as water. Non-competitor meals will be $4.00 for adults and $2.00 for children.

The match fee will be $20 for adults, $10 for juniors and a $40 maximum for a family.

Please let me know as soon a possible if you will be able to attend and what division/class you intend to compete in. Classes and awards will be determined on the morning of Wednesday, September 29th. If you cannot attend, that information is very helpful to me as well, so I am not waiting until the last moment to see if you will be attending.

Thanks and I hope to see many of you there.

Tim MacSweyn

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Im not sure but no that would not be legal because you could still technically switch pellet extremely easily and it will shoot over 500fps....if you are wondering for the legal aspect not the field target aspect

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:17 pm 
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daguasta wrote:
Im not sure but no that would not be legal because you could still technically switch pellet extremely easily and it will shoot over 500fps....if you are wondering for the legal aspect not the field target aspect


The revision done in 2003 (if I remember correctly) addresses this. The mass of the pellet times the muzzle velocity must not exceed 5.4 Joules of energy.

So in other words if it can propel a small wad of cigarette tinfoil through the sound barrier that is not a violation if the total energy does not exceed what normal ammunition would at under 500fps.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:18 pm 
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A registered PAL gun de-tuned to under 500fps does not automatically become a non-pal gun. You can apply to have it un-registered, but be prepared to answer questions on how the mod you did is irreversible or permanent.

I am not sure about the legality of shooting a PAL gun set at under 500fps for FT, plinking or hunting in an area that does not allow firearms over 500fps and is restricted to guns shooting under 500fps. I will try to find out though. If pal guns turned down under 500fps could legally be used for under 500fps FT events, that sure would open up a lot of options. I will try to get the info from the top CFO rather than asking a local CFO that may just make up what he/she thinks is right. Technically, you would think if the rule states guns have to shoot under 500fps, that as long as they do so, they comply with the range requirements. The pal rating should not matter except for the legality of owning the gun.

Interesting to see how this comes out.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:45 pm 
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Quote:
must not exceed 5.4 Joules of energy.



If my math is correct - 14.2g 0.22 cal at 495 fps = 7.7278 ft/lbs = 10.476 joules.


Quote:
Can I take a non pal gun ie HW97 or HW98 put a spring kit in it


The gun would never be "a PAL rated gun". It would be purchased as a non PAL gun and then modified to shoot the heavier pellets <495 fps.


Jeff.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:18 pm 
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The law states that the gun has to exceed both the ft/lb limit and the 500fps limit to be considered a pal rifle. So a .22 or .25 or ... air rifle, or pistol for that matter, shooting under 500fps meets the non-pal requirement. Goofy law, but that's Canada, eh.

If someone is silly enough to take a non-pal gun, modify it to exceed both limits and tell the cfc about it , it would then technically have to be registered. Something I would never do, but I am positive it has been done many times by those modifying non-pal guns.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Dont tell my wife wrote:
I was wondering what exactly the 500 FPS rule is. Can I take a non pal gun ie HW97 or HW98 put a spring kit in it. Use 18g or heavier pellets and detune it so it shoots only those pellets at less than 500 FPS ? Would that be a legal rig ?

I figure if I can't hit the center of the target I might have a chance to knock it over anyway.


Jeff.


To answer just this question, I would say it is legal. It is non-pal and shoots under 500 fps.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:42 pm 
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Ok thanks Tim. Now would this be considered bending the rules or down right cheating ?

Will anyone be doing any testing at the meets ?

Sorry I am really stirring the pot.


Jeff.

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Make a fast friend. Adopt a greyhound.
WAGG. Waterloo Area Greyhound Group.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:54 pm 
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Can't see why staying within the rules would be considered cheating. I call it innovating.

Since targets can easily withstand 20 ft/lb and not be damaged, there are no issues there. We try to set the targets for sub 500fps matches to go down with a 2 ft/lb paddle hit and stay up with a 12 ft/lb face hit. That should pretty well cover any innovating that can be done.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:01 pm 
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Back to my original point -

18g 0.22 cal at 495 fps = 9.7958 ft/lbs = 13.2789 joules.

21.1g 0.22 cal at 495 fps = 11.4828 ft/lbs = 15.5658 joules.

If I can't hit the center I might still be able to knock them over just by hitting the target on the face.

Jeff.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:03 am 
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I just noticed your adopt a greyhound slogan. Some years back I had neighbours who adopted a greyhound from a racetrack in Florida. Every afternoon when I came to the corner of the road where he lived he would be waiting for me. There was this great straight stretch of straight level gravelled road about a third of a mile long that was all old farmhouses and nobody but the residents ever used.

The dog would with remarkable discipline get on his mark and get set. I drove a Suzuki Samurai with 5 speed standard. The dog did not like running on the gravel so he stayed on the inside of the ditch line and bounded over the few small bush obstacles in the way. When I popped the clutch it would take me a quarter mile to catch him if I started off in low. At the end of the run I would wave at him and he would trot back to his lawn. What a great dog.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:24 am 
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Location: Rocky Mtn Hse Alberta
Dont tell my wife wrote:
Quote:
must not exceed 5.4 Joules of energy.



If my math is correct - 14.2g 0.22 cal at 495 fps = 7.7278 ft/lbs = 10.476 joules.


Quote:
Can I take a non pal gun ie HW97 or HW98 put a spring kit in it


The gun would never be "a PAL rated gun". It would be purchased as a non PAL gun and then modified to shoot the heavier pellets <495 fps.


Jeff.


That would be making it a PAL rated airgun.
It would shoot over 500 with 14.3 grain pellets therefore PAL rated.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:27 am 
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Mac wrote:
Dont tell my wife wrote:
I was wondering what exactly the 500 FPS rule is. Can I take a non pal gun ie HW97 or HW98 put a spring kit in it. Use 18g or heavier pellets and detune it so it shoots only those pellets at less than 500 FPS ? Would that be a legal rig ?

I figure if I can't hit the center of the target I might have a chance to knock it over anyway.


Jeff.


To answer just this question, I would say it is legal. It is non-pal and shoots under 500 fps.


Don't think so.

Pellets used to determine PL would be the manufacturers choice and they DO NOT use heavy pellets to determine fps.

it would be rated based on 'common' pellets and that is the 14.3 grain weight.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:16 am 
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"Back to my original point -

18g 0.22 cal at 495 fps = 9.7958 ft/lbs = 13.2789 joules.

21.1g 0.22 cal at 495 fps = 11.4828 ft/lbs = 15.5658 joules.

If I can't hit the center I might still be able to knock them over just by hitting the target on the face.

Jeff."



Hi Jeff.

As Parker emphasized, we can only allow non Pal guns at these low power matches....this has been made clear... guns that do not have an FRT established for them...guns that are shooting below 500fps with typical ammo, as the manufacturer would suggest for weight.

Your question should be directed the the Firearms Center, and whatever division of that organization who is worthy to answer your question. We should not to be brought into the middle of a discussion like this. They set the rules for what constitutes a Firearm in Canada. Contact them.

I personally would NEVER feel comfortable bending the rules to the point that I have taken a gun and MODIFIED it to shoot above the 500fps mark with AVERAGE and TYPICAL weight pellets for that particular power plant. 18g. or 21g pellets are not typical for a sub 500fps airgun. Those who are in the know and making and enforcing rules for the CFC are not stupid.

Would you be proud of yourself for knocking targets over without the pellet going through the kill zone? Seems like a very strange question (statement), and you have asked it twice? And even asked if it would be cheating??? Do you think it's cheating??

Yes, chronographs may be present at matches. We use them periodically.

In any match where I am a match director I would in no way agree with allowing a gun in the state of modification you are mentioning to shoot in that sub 500fps match. That is as near to cheating as one can get (in my opinion), and would cast a shadow on our statement of it being a non PAL, sub 500fps match. It is a modified non-PAL gun.

NOW.....IF...we are told by the CFC or whoever will over see the enforcement of the rules that as long as the pellets are shooting below 500fps, and even a PAL gun de-tuned (or adjusted down temporarily like a PCP) and still registered can be used, then we will certainly welcome that. I would love to hear it. That would make this much easier for many shooters. Until then...it has to be as we said...non pal...no FRT established for particular gun... below 500fps with intended pellet.

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