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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:29 pm 
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rsterne wrote:
I'll give you a specific example.... A shooter buys a 1377 which is non-PAL.... He converts it to .22 cal and modifies it carefully so that it shoots consistently at 495 fps with 14.3 gr. pellets.... He even makes sure that he tests a bunch of different brands and selects the one that is the fastest in his gun for his tests.... As far as he is concerned, he has been diligent in making sure that the gun does not need to be registered.... For whatever reason he gets checked by the police.... Maybe something as simple as he is shooting on Crown land and gets reported simply because someone "saw a guy with a gun" (I know somebody that happened to).... Maybe the cop had a bad day and decides to take the gun in for testing (my buddy didn't have that happen, he convinced the officer it was under 500 fps).... When the gun is tested, the police use 11.9 gr. RWS Hobby pellets.... and the velocity is 520 fps....

I would insist that they test the gun with my pellets and not their "trick" pellets..... :roll: :lol: .


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:39 pm 
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Quote:
I would insist that they test the gun with my pellets and not their "trick" pellets

So would I.... but I still haven't seen anything written that gives you that option.... I hope I'm wrong....

Bob

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:41 pm 
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Mac wrote:
.......this "law" that seems very easy to follow due to its ambiguity.

And ambiguous is exactly how the authorities want to keep it.
May as well use it to our advantage on the rare occasion we have the opportunity to do so. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:30 am 
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Suprmatic wrote:
Mac wrote:
.......this "law" that seems very easy to follow due to its ambiguity.

And ambiguous is exactly how the authorities want to keep it.
May as well use it to our advantage on the rare occasion we have the opportunity to do so. :D


Exactly right.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:24 am 
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Suprmatic wrote:
Voltar1 wrote:
Standard weights were determined and thereafter presumed to be understood since about 1980 Huh? Who made this determination, and where was it published? I don't recall ever seeing anything "official" (gov't sanctioned) about "standard" pellet weights for airguns.


Thank You....... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:24 am 
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Mac wrote:
Suprmatic wrote:
Mac wrote:
.......this "law" that seems very easy to follow due to its ambiguity.

And ambiguous is exactly how the authorities want to keep it.
May as well use it to our advantage on the rare occasion we have the opportunity to do so. :D


Exactly right.


Couldn't agree more....

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:37 am 
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"The intention was that a barrelled weapon would only have to satisfy one of the two standards to be exempt (either fall below the specified energy or fall below the specified velocity). Firearms groups are concerned that the way the provision has been drafted, a barrelled weapon will have to satisfy both standards to be exempt. If this were true, many firearms that are currently exempt would become subject to licensing and registration."


"b. Airguns

Clause 4(2) modifies section 84(3) of the Criminal Code which sets out regulated items that are excluded from requirements of the Firearms Act, and certain listed Criminal Code provisions in Part III.(50) Pursuant to current section 84(3)(d), a weapon is deemed not to be a firearm (for the above listed purposes) if it is not designed or adapted to discharge:

(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second; or

(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second.

This exemption generally applies to many airguns and other similar types of weapons that are found in Canada. There has been concern lately with respect to lightweight pellets which can be discharged by certain airguns at a speed exceeding the maximum set out in the exemption. Some people were concerned that these airguns would no longer be exempt from the licensing and registration provisions. The goal of the amendment is to clarify the exemption by adding a muzzle energy standard to the existing muzzle velocity standard.

Under new section 84(3)(d)(i), a weapon not designed or adapted to discharge a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules is deemed not to be a firearm (for the listed purposes). The intention was to exempt a weapon if it satisfies one of the two standards. Thus, even if the weapon discharges lightweight pellets at a speed exceeding the maximum set out in the exemption, it may still be exempted if it does not exceed the new muzzle energy standard. There has been some debate regarding whether the new provision does what it intended. Some argue that both standards will have to be satisfied for the weapon to be exempt. Because of the use of a double negative, the section seems to contradict itself when it is turned into a positive. As written, it appears that the weapon only needs to satisfy one of the two standards to be exempted. The new muzzle energy standard is also added to section 84(3)(d)(ii)."



Well all this tells me is that I am right.....I can handle that :wink:

If I bought a non-pal gun it would be perfectly legal to shoot my heavy pellets at 499FPS, and have the light ones fly faster, but not over 5.7J 8)

Again I see no reference to actual pellet weights...... :P
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Last edited by jgoodz420 on Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:51 am 
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Suprmatic wrote:
Voltar1 wrote:
That is very interesting Supr, never heard that one before especially on a gun that has never been PAL rated or offered as PAL rated. (may be mistaken on that one too) I can't recall if the D-24C was ever offered as a PAL rated gun or not - however - the reason for that declaration is to allow it's importation as a non-PAL gun.

What velocity will your 24C shoot 7.9 grain Crosmans at? Not sure on the Crosmans, but with a JSB Express (also 7.9 gr) it will hit around 545 FPS.

Standard weights were determined and thereafter presumed to be understood since about 1980 Huh? Who made this determination, and where was it published? I don't recall ever seeing anything "official" (gov't sanctioned) about "standard" pellet weights for airguns.


I have a couple of the 24C. First one from Dan way back when. Came in plain brown box with Dianawerk printed all over it but no Specifications. Non fiberoptic sights , F on barrel. It had been Detuned for the Canadian market as I recall. The Oem spring was available and I have , just never got around to installing and running through the Chrony. My other 24 came in a pretty coloured photo imprinted box with the specifications that Len posted on one end. Only obvious physical difference between the two that I can see is the fiberoptic sights on the newer model as both have the T05 trigger setup
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:27 pm 
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Suprmatic wrote:
Voltar1 wrote:
That is very interesting Supr, never heard that one before especially on a gun that has never been PAL rated or offered as PAL rated. (may be mistaken on that one too) I can't recall if the D-24C was ever offered as a PAL rated gun or not - however - the reason for that declaration is to allow it's importation as a non-PAL gun.

What velocity will your 24C shoot 7.9 grain Crosmans at? Not sure on the Crosmans, but with a JSB Express (also 7.9 gr) it will hit around 545 FPS.

Standard weights were determined and thereafter presumed to be understood since about 1980 Huh? Who made this determination, and where was it published? I don't recall ever seeing anything "official" (gov't sanctioned) about "standard" pellet weights for airguns.


545fps with 7.9grains makes that gun PAL rated. it crosses both barriers and so it is PAL.

The weight and fps both indicate that they had a standard weight in mind when they calced the 500/4.2

Why are you intent on proving me wrong when I am running on memory that is 30 years old?

I was heavily involved in our local Rod and Gun Club in those formative years and were getting regular updates on the rulings as one member was a director for Shooting Sports Federation. (As I recall)

So what I am providing is history without documentation. So do with it what you will :)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:30 pm 
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.177 hits both 500/4.2 with a 7.5 grain pellet

as would all other calibers. Is this a thing we wish to stir up?

confusing for sure.....

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:39 pm 
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It seems to me that it is not so much proving anyone wrong as it is, "Could we please stop talking about this! Pleeeeeease!"

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Mac wrote:
It seems to me that it is not so much proving anyone wrong as it is, "Could we please stop talking about this! Pleeeeeease!"

x2

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Mac wrote:
It seems to me that it is not so much proving anyone wrong as it is, "Could we please stop talking about this! Pleeeeeease!"



:) :)

cool.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Voltar1 wrote:
545fps with 7.9grains makes that gun PAL rated. it crosses both barriers and so it is PAL. But I only use H&N Barracudas, because they are the manufacturer recommended pellet, and the only ones certified to provide the legally prescribed velocity.... :roll:

Why are you intent on proving me wrong when I am running on memory that is 30 years old? Not trying to prove you wrong, trying to figure what I missed, and how I missed it. :?

I'm all for letting this thread die, so I'll shut up now. :|


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:45 pm 
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"Dont tell my wife" started this thread, so it's all his fault. :P :wink:

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