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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:24 pm 
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jgoodz420 wrote:
The EV2 cost $2300+tax here right now


Wow, I thought the EV2's were under $2000 here....

The EV2's were sold in the Uk for around GBP1000 to GBP1100 (I bought mine brand new in the Uk for GBP909).

Given a price of GBP1500, that's a 50% increase in price. Extrapolate that pricing to the new FTP900, and it might be CA$2300 + 50% = CA$3450.... That is EXPENSIVE for any rifle.

The reason so many people bought EV's, was because they were one of the most reasonably priced FT rifles out there. In the UK, when my EV cost GBP909 the Steyr was around GBP1550 and the Walther Alutec Dominator was GBP1550 and the Daystate GP was GBP1650. The EV sold because of price - it was 45% cheaper than Steyr and Walther.

I guess only time will tell.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:23 pm 
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As the owner or past owner of the Steyr LG Dominator FWB P70 Daystate Ftr etc etc I can assure you the lower price of the EV2 was not the only reason people bought them. Shooters who are good enough to compete for world champion dont choose the cheapest option. All top brands offer fine options for sure but AA has been the most supportive to Field Target over the last number of years.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Maybe so in Canada - I do not know the market here.

But in the UK and South Africa, definitely not the case. The Canadian Dollar vs South African Rand is at R9/CA$1 at the moment, just to give some perspective.

In South Africa, an EV2 sold for R17900 brand new and a Steyr LG110FT sold for R29000. A Daystate GP sold for R30000 and a Walther LG300 Dominator Alutec for R29999.

I was the sole importer and distributor for Walther (and Hammerli) and was one of the 2 distributors for Steyr and Anschutz. I knew (and still know) every single FT shooter in South Africa - the ones that bought the EV's bought them because they cost half of the other rifles.

Remember, I never said they were bad rifles - just that they were a LOT cheaper than the other German rifles. And for the difference, the buyer could get a brand new Sightron Scope for R9000 and a Storm case for R3000. Pretty much the same deal in the UK. In South Africa, it was the more affluent shooters that could afford the sport of FT, because it required an outlay of around R30000-R50000 to be into a good rifle (a HUGE amount of money, if you consider that 90% of SA's population earned less than R40000 per year), good scope and good accessories. Not so in the UK - a LOT of my UK buddies are train drivers, policemen etc etc. And to a lot of them it was also easier to afford an Ev at GBP900 than a Steyr at GBP1600.

So yes, I do agree that an EV is JUST as capable as a Steyr/Daystate/Walther, but it's also at a much lower pricepoint, hence the popularity. Even though a huge number of EV's had regulator issues (and some still have that issue), it was an "affordable race gun" - way more affordable than any other "race gun".

I too owned an EV2, a Daystate GP, a Walther LG300 Alutec Dominator, a Jon Harris modded Anschuts 8002 S2 and a few Steyr LG110FT rifles and if money was no object, I would choose the Steyr every time.

Heck, a good friend of mine (the designer of the Hammerli AR20 rifle - Juergen Kloeckener) came 16th at Worlds in 2010 in Hungary with an $800 Hammerli AR20FT in only his second year of shooting FT. So it's more about the guy behind the trigger than the rifle.

All I was trying to say, was that if AA increased the price of the new FTP900 to GBP1500, they would not sell as well as what the EV2 did.

To prove my point, the following real life scenario back in South Africa. Sorry for keeping on mentioning South Africa, but I lived there and they are arguably the 2nd best FT country in the world, having competed in Worlds for only 7 years in total, and having come 2nd for the past 6 years to England. Anyway, in May 2009, an EV2 cost R29990 in South Africa and a Steyr LG110 at the same time (May 2009) cost R29000, the then newly released Daystate GP cost R26500 and a Walther LG300 Alutec (just before I became the agent) cost R32000.

At that time, there were exactly 2 shooters in South Africa shooting the EV2. Another 3 guys shot Walther LG300's and around 3 guys shot Steyr LG110. When the Daystate GP launched in SA in June 2009, they sold 15 of them in 3 weeks - the first batch of 6 were sold out on the day they were announced. I made a big deal of lowering the price of the Walthers (from R32000 by the previous agent to R24000 when I got the agency) and all of a sudden I sold 8 Walther LG300 Dominators in the space of just over 6 weeks.

By July 2009, not a single EV2 had sold in SA between 2006 and July 2009. The AA agent had to do something as we were now selling Walther and Steyr LG110's for R24000 and EV's were still R30000. He dropped the EV2's price from R30000 to R18000, and within 6 months (to December 2009) 20 EV2 rifles had been sold.

So as much as anyone thinks the EV2's sold because of reputation, it was more to do with pricing. A full "race gun" at GBP900 would outsell any other "race gun" costing GBP1600. Take the rest of the world as example when you go to Worlds each year - it's mainly the Brits that shoot EV2's. The South Africans shoot Steyr, Walther and Daystates (only 1 EV2 in the team), the Germans (having gotten 3rd place at Worlds for quite some time) were ALL shooting Steyr. The rest of Europe mostly on FWB, Steyr, Walther and some Anschutz rifles - very, very few guys outside of the Uk were shooting EV2's.

It's just the way things are. And I have been to quite a number of Worlds to see what gets used. But mostly, my experience was in SA being a very large FT country in comparison to the rest of the world, excluding UK.

Either way - not wanting to argue with anyone - just stating my personal views and observations.

EV's are nice rifles if they fit you, but there are nicer ones around. AA would have to come up with something spectacular - more so now that FWB are getting back into FT with their 800 X FT. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:34 am 
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It's hard to fault Robbie's logic. You see the same scenario with any product, price sells! That's why most of us don't drive an AMG Mercedes.......... (or whatever your preferred exotica is)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:23 am 
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Come on guys...obviously price sells. Your using far too many words to say what we all know already. The problem I have is that it has been suggested that price is the only reason the EV2 has been the best selling ft gun. If the EV2 was inferior and not capable of being competitive it would not be in the hands of some of the best shooters in the world. That should be obvious. It has been the most common or second most common PCP at the world championships over the last number of years. That is why I referred to it as a dominant ft pcp. It is a purpose built pcp that has been produced by a company who has listened to and asked the help in its development from well respected FT shooters. And their new offering should have all the same goals in mind.

I have loved all top shelf models I have owned. Infact I still own most. I admire those I have not had the pleasure to own. I might use any one of them for a particular match. I have had regulator or known of regulator or similar problems with all of them. I have seen most of them from the inside out so am aware of thier internal quality. In the end we choose what we personally like best but still need to be honest with the achievments and strenghts as well as the weaknesses and shortfalls of each model. And that is why I tip my hat to Air Arms and thank them for the production of the successful EV2. And since the Brits are the best and they use them Robbie....well....lol. Enjoy shooting.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:43 am 
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I don't dispute that the Ev2 is a good gun at all. All I was trying to say in a "long winded" :) post, was that had the EV2 been priced at the same price-point as Steyr, Daystate, Walther etc, they MIGHT not have sold in the same quantities. That's really all. Not trying to bash it - I bought one myself a few years back. IF the new price is in Steyr price range, I am thinking that something like a RAW TM1000 will outsell it, being the much cheaper option in the end. The "purists" will always buy what they like no matter what pricepoint it is sold at (within reason I guess).

Anyway, just each person's opinion - nothing wrong with having an opinion. :)

Over and out. :)

Robbie


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:14 am 
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My OPINION is this! :D :D :D

Ok seriously, having owned a few raceguns in my "FT carreer", I am just a much a better shot with my Steyr than anything else. My EV2 never felt balanced to me and I always sucked at standers and kneelers because it felt as though the rifle wanted to tip forward all the time. The Steyr just fits me much better. When I pick it up, it feels balanced and I shoot it better. My choice had nothing to do with budget, since I paid more for my EV than for my Steyr (got a fantastic deal from my good friend Keith Rawlins).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:50 pm 
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I was reading they will be putting out a bench rest model as well...

" A second model called the BRP 900 (Bench Rest Professional) will be based on the FTP 900, and will be released in the 3rd quarter of 2013. This will ensure that the Air Arms brand will be well entrenched within the Field Target as well as the Bench Rest community."

http://airgunwarehouse.co.za/news/

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:06 pm 
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My prediction, for what it's worth, and this is purely from a marketing point of view is that the new rifle will be priced at about $250-$300 more expensive than the EV 2.

Air Arms will increase the price ticket on their "Flagship" rifle to reinforce the perception of quality, accuracy and technology.

My understanding of AA's marketing stratergy is that they see themselves as a producer of quality products at reasonably affordable prices.

I don't believe they want to be percieved as elitist like FWB, Anschutz or Steyr. My belief is that they will continue to aim for volume sales

Just my 2¢ worth

DaveD

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:22 pm 
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globalstar66 wrote:
I too owned an EV2, a Daystate GP, a Walther LG300 Alutec Dominator, a Jon Harris modded Anschuts 8002 S2 and a few Steyr LG110FT rifles and if money was no object, I would choose the Steyr every time.


I find this statement very interesting! At one point I owned an EV2 Mk3, an AZ tuned LG100 and a Daystate GP, with the plan of trying out all 3 to see what I like best. I've since sold the EV2 (without ever shooting it!) but still have the LG and GP. I used to shoot the LG in the 'open' division and did well with it, but have it setup for WFTF now, and I've never really shot the GP. I've been focusing on shooting WFTF piston for the past 3 years though, but one day I'll put the 2 PCPs 'head to head' - From a coolness factor the GP wins (love the looks and the program-ability), but it'll be interesting to find out which one I can shoot better.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:44 am 
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Tom I liked the stock on the GP a LOT. Also, it was really, really accurate. Unfortunately, I had some issues with the electronics, and so much so that the rifle had to be sent back to Tony at the factory for "fixing" - I was without a rifle for 3 months, and soon after getting it back I sold it. I still think it's one of the nicest handling guns around. And nowadays, the electronics have been sorted out.

Mine had the turquoise green/gray laminate - awesome gun actually.

But my Anschutz 8002 S2 was my dream rifle - best trigger in the business and it was just an incredible rifle to shoot. Pity I had to sell them all when we moved to Canada....

Dave, unfortunately AA have already showed their "hand" with the new FTP900 - it's priced in the UK at GBP1500. That's between GBP400 and GBP500 more than the last price on the EV2 Mk4 (depending where you shopped) - so even at GBP400 more, it's $650 more than the EV2. So, if the guys on here are saying the EV2 sold in Canada for $2300, then the new FTP900 should be around $3000 - putting it squarely in Steyr price range. A RAW TM1000 at $2000 will then seem like a serious BARGAIN.

And my friends shooting the TM1000 rifles say they are awesome. They are winning the BR titles all across the world, so we know they are incredibly accurate...

Time will tell I guess.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:48 am 
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globalstar66 wrote:

Dave, unfortunately AA have already showed their "hand" with the new FTP900 - it's priced in the UK at GBP1500. That's between GBP400 and GBP500 more than the last price on the EV2 Mk4 (depending where you shopped) - so even at GBP400 more, it's $650 more than the EV2. So, if the guys on here are saying the EV2 sold in Canada for $2300, then the new FTP900 should be around $3000 - putting it squarely in Steyr price range. A RAW TM1000 at $2000 will then seem like a serious BARGAIN.


With all the advancements and changes that makes sense, if it is a better gun than the EV2 why would it not cost more? Research, development and engineering costs are (only some) factors that will influence the price of any gun, especially when you are dealing with such a niche market as PCP Match/FT air rifles...

From your posts I get the feeling your are already against this gun you have not even seen yet. As if it is personally offensive to you that Air Arms would ask 1500GBP for a newly designed rifle? Maybe the RAW TM1000 will seem like a cheap POS next to it? (I am positive that is not case) but the point is you don't know, regardless of how many EV2's sold in S.A. 4-5years ago...

Here is some info posted by a member of the AA FT Team...
Quote:
The new rifle ( FTP 900 ( at the moment )), is in my understanding (direct from AA) will be a whole new rifle except for the barrel, which will be those which are currently in use on the MK4 EV2,

It will have a completely new ( much bigger and stronger/longer ) breech block, which will hold the barrel over an increased area for rigidity, longer machined scope rails, a new cocking side lever and bolt system, and the much improved trigger ( extra sears and adjustment ) will be a sealed system (from the elements) to stop the ingress of water and dirt.

The regulator is also a new improved system for reliability and consistancy.

the barrel will also be Double shrouded to combat barrel resonance and temperature fluctuation and finished off with an adjustable Air stripper.

the cylinder will be fillable by quick fill, with the ability to be removed for quick replacement ( a 20 micron air filter will also be incorporated to stop debris entering the system )

there will be a windicator, pressure gauge, 'maybe a spirit level?', and a "take it or leave it" barrel band for free floating or not ( your choice ).

The NEW stock ( when Minelli gets the supplies, should be a multi layered laminated in ...( im not going to tell you the colours wait and see ) the action will not be coloured like the EV2.

improved adjustments and height range on cheek piece hamster and new butt plate / hook system,

the pistol grip has a repositioned cut thumb up groove for a more natural placement, it also incorporates a palm swell and adjustable palm shelf and the whole stock will be 'cast off' ( a difficult and expensive thing to do ) for the right handed shooter.

a left handed stock will be available at a later unspecified date, due to the minimum quantity requirement for production ( so if your left handed and want one, then club together and put in a bulk order and it might happen sooner rather than later )

and all this Will work straight out of the box,

( unlike a Steyrr, which needs a lot of work to get it to shoot correctly )

and all of this will be for less than the price of a Steyr/Walther etc.

also to quell, rumours it is not based on an AA 510 or a steyr, it is ALL NEW and has been designed for...

FIELD TARGET with the assistance of Respected Field Target Shooters.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:53 am 
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Wow - It seems I am offending you by my own personal views.... I am sorry about that.

I am not against the new rifle at all - I actually liked my EV at the price I paid. I am merely wondering how well it would sell at GBP1500 - a 45% price increase from it's previous rifle. I wonder how you would react if Dodge announced a new RAM truck but at a 45% price increase. In fact, my last EV I paid only GBP909 for - so this GBP1500 would be a 65% increase in price in 2.5 years.

The Steyr's at GBP1550 have a hard time selling in the UK and in SA (and from the info I have from the Steyr factory, they don't sell in huge numbers in Canada either) - so I'm just predicting that an AA at GBP1500 would not sell that well either. There seems to be a serious "barrier" when an airgun approaches $3000+ in a lot of countries. In Germany where rifles and accessories are pretty expensive anyway, these higher priced rifles sell well.

Anyway, I don't want to argue with anyone - I am merely expressing MY opinion. If it's offensive, I will refrain in future from making comments. Sorry. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:45 am 
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Robbie, please continue to express your opinions. I find them to be informative and well balanced, as well as based on experience. I will say that I am a bit of a "Brit"-o-phile in that I tend to like British products. I am a huge fan of Air Arms, but even given that, I never could get myself to buy an EV2 (even though it's one of the guns I lusted after). Not because I didn't think it was good enough, I just happened to find things at the same price point that I thought represented better value. I am looking forward to seeing the new AA and if I like it enough, I'll buy one. I won't fool myself into thinking it will transform me into a world class shooter though, I KNOW what the weak link is in my set-up!!!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Up until the last few months, I am quite sure the EV2 was selling for just under $2000 in Canada and the US. I came pretty close to buying one before a used Steyr, similar to the one I had good success with, popped up for sale at a bargain price to say the least.

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