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 Post subject: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:27 am 
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Is the 495 fps law pertaining to .177 cal or is it all calibers? Knowing that a .22 call shooting at 495 fps delivers greater impact, did they factor that in or is the 495 all we need to word about? Thought of this when I noticed the Crosman 1377 is rated to 495 and the 1322 is rated for 460. Is in the same gun and they just changed the barrel thus causing the slower speed or is there a lower limit for .22 for non pal?


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:55 am 
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Posts: 887
This question is asked more than can count fingers and toes on two hands and two feet. just in the morning laugh.
It states..the Firearm is a NON PAL if Both the Velocity(500 f/s and under) and the Force 5.7 j.
So it goes like this, if you have a Cannon and it shoots a 10 lb. ball under 500 f/s it is a Non Pal.
But if it shoots a 10 lb. ball at 501 f/s, then it is a PAL.
So both velocity and force has to be met(at the same instance) to be a PAL.

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:33 am 
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Posts: 1677
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Quote:
2brandnew
Is the 495 fps law pertaining to .177 cal or is it all calibers? Knowing that a .22 call shooting at 495 fps delivers greater impact, did they factor that in or is the 495 all we need to word about? Thought of this when I noticed the Crosman 1377 is rated to 495 and the 1322 is rated for 460. Is in the same gun and they just changed the barrel thus causing the slower speed or is there a lower limit for .22 for non pal?


The most recent lengthy explanation on this subject is topic53482.
Read also "Rules Regarding Pistol Velocity Mods Discussion" on this site where you have Canadian firearm laws in a nutshell.
By the way, the limit for non-PAL is 500fps not 495fps and is not really directly related to the mass of a projectile.


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:25 am 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
In other words..if you want the best bang for the buck...get a .22 which fires under 500fps with a standard weight pellet(14.3gr.)
.177@460fps with a 7.9gr =3.71fpe
.22@460fps with a 14.3gr.=6.72fpe (well over 4.2 fpe but still under
the 500fps mark.

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:42 am 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
2240mod wrote:
This question is asked more than can count fingers and toes on two hands and two feet. just in the morning laugh.
It states..the Firearm is a NON PAL if Both the Velocity(500 f/s and under) and the Force 5.7 j.
So it goes like this, if you have a Cannon and it shoots a 10 lb. ball under 500 f/s it is a Non Pal.
But if it shoots a 10 lb. ball at 501 f/s, then it is a PAL.

So both velocity and force has to be met(at the same instance) to be a PAL.



Poor choice of example. Being a match-lock or 'loose powder touch-hole' system of ignition, the cannon is a non-firearm, just as a flintlock, match lock or wheellock rifle or smoothbore is a non-firearm and no PAL is required. - This, all in lay terms, of course.

Due to this law, people with firearms bans, can still own and shoot Flintlock, Doglock, Miqueltte, English lock, (those all minor variations on the flintlock) matchlock or wheellock rifles and smoothbores which includes canons and do it legally.

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 Post subject: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Right on, a CANNON! I'm in!


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
I'll throw in my 2 cents worth here.... Nowhere in the law does it state a "standard pellet".... The only place FPE comes into play is the 5.7 j (4.2 FPE) exception so that a non-PAL gun can be over 500 fps IF AND ONLY IF the energy is under 4.2 FPE.... IMO opinion, that can really only apply in .177 cal, as any pellet over 7.55 grains at 500 fps will also be over 4.2 FPE....

The CFC use the manufacturers specifications to determine whether a gun in non-PAL or not, and if the manufacturer happens to use a 10 gr. pellet in .177 and the gun shoots 499 fps, then it is what it is.... non-PAL.... However, and again IMO, once you modify a gun then the CFC can pretty much use any pellet they want to test YOUR gun.... I think that throws the idea of a "standard pellet" out the window.... There are several (non-lead) pellets available in .22 cal that are under 10 grains.... Can anyone find in the law where it says the CFC can't use them to test your modified gun?.... I can't....

IMO, to be safe, you should really test any gun you make or modify with the lightest ammunition you can get in that caliber.... The exception is in .177, where you can go over 500 fps IF the gun shoots less than 4.2 FPE....

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 883
Location: Edmonton
MyCrosman wrote:
In other words..if you want the best bang for the buck...get a .22 which fires under 500fps with a standard weight pellet(14.3gr.)
.177@460fps with a 7.9gr =3.71fpe
.22@460fps with a 14.3gr.=6.72fpe (well over 4.2 fpe but still under
the 500fps mark.


Best bang for the buck...not even close!
.338 Lapua at 3400fps!!
Now that's bang for your buck :-)


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Location: Montreal
bobtodrick wrote:
MyCrosman wrote:
In other words..if you want the best bang for the buck...get a .22 which fires under 500fps with a standard weight pellet(14.3gr.)
.177@460fps with a 7.9gr =3.71fpe
.22@460fps with a 14.3gr.=6.72fpe (well over 4.2 fpe but still under
the 500fps mark.


Best bang for the buck...not even close!
.338 Lapua at 3400fps!!
Now that's bang for your buck :-)

Is that PAL rated? LOL
With a 0.15 grains bullet it would still be non-PAL at 3.85 fpe!

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:29 pm
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My 2 cents now.

Bob is absolutely right. It is clearly written in the RCMP fact sheet that the manufacturer's specs to determine that it is a non pal rifle is what counts. I had a conversation some time ago with Mike at SSSO and he told me that for instance detuned weihrauchs sometimes shoot strong with regular pellets but Canada gun control insist that Weihrauch are the only ones authorized to test their rifles to determine if they are pal or non-pal.

Gilbert


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
rsterne wrote:
I'll throw in my 2 cents worth here.... Nowhere in the law does it state a "standard pellet".... The only place FPE comes into play is the 5.7 j (4.2 FPE) exception so that a non-PAL gun can be over 500 fps IF AND ONLY IF the energy is under 4.2 FPE.... IMO opinion, that can really only apply in .177 cal, as any pellet over 7.55 grains at 500 fps will also be over 4.2 FPE....

The CFC use the manufacturers specifications to determine whether a gun in non-PAL or not, and if the manufacturer happens to use a 10 gr. pellet in .177 and the gun shoots 499 fps, then it is what it is.... non-PAL.... However, and again IMO, once you modify a gun then the CFC can pretty much use any pellet they want to test YOUR gun.... I think that throws the idea of a "standard pellet" out the window.... There are several (non-lead) pellets available in .22 cal that are under 10 grains.... Can anyone find in the law where it says the CFC can't use them to test your modified gun?.... I can't....

IMO, to be safe, you should really test any gun you make or modify with the lightest ammunition you can get in that caliber.... The exception is in .177, where you can go over 500 fps IF the gun shoots less than 4.2 FPE....

Bob

Okay,good.I'll print out your response and carry it with me whenever I'm out testing.That'll show them if they want to check my guns.

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:19 pm
Posts: 9049
Location: Coalmont BC
Quote:
Okay,good.I'll print out your response and carry it with me whenever I'm out testing.That'll show them if they want to check my guns.

I have no idea what that means.... If your gun is unmodified, and was purchased as a non-PAL gun, there should be no questions asked, and in fact no reason to even test it.... If you modified it, then surely all bets are off, and IMO, the CFC is justified in testing it with whatever ammo they choose....

Bob

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Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:09 pm
Posts: 1677
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Quote:
MyCrosman wrote
Okay,good.I'll print out your response and carry it with me whenever I'm out testing. That'll show them if they want to check my guns.


Whatever gun you have it is already classified in the Firearms Reference Table as either a “firearm” or “deemed non-firearm” (under 500fps/5.7J). When you are stopped by law enforcement officers they check their computer in a cruiser and immediately find out about your gun. It’s pretty simple. If you have a gun classified as “deemed non-firearm” you are free to go. I guess that the biggest problem you would have if you showed them a printout of Bob’s response! That would be something..


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:27 am
Posts: 1108
Location: Thunder Bay,On.
rsterne wrote:
Quote:
Okay,good.I'll print out your response and carry it with me whenever I'm out testing.That'll show them if they want to check my guns.

I have no idea what that means.... If your gun is unmodified, and was purchased as a non-PAL gun, there should be no questions asked, and in fact no reason to even test it.... If you modified it, then surely all bets are off, and IMO, the CFC is justified in testing it with whatever ammo they choose....

Bob

okay..I'm just wondering why there isn't a scramble with manufacturers' to put out a .22 cal air pistol that shoots ....for instance....a 32.4 gr. Eunjin pointed at 499fps.Thats a whopping 17.91 fpe in a pistol...and STILL under 500fps.They would fly off the shelves.I'd buy one right now. I MUST be missing something with the logic regarding that law because it sounds like a manufacturer can put out a pistol with ANY fpe and keep it under 500fps and call it legal.I definitely will be waiting for a gun like that to come out.

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
rav wrote:
Quote:
MyCrosman wrote
Okay,good.I'll print out your response and carry it with me whenever I'm out testing. That'll show them if they want to check my guns.


Whatever gun you have it is already classified in the Firearms Reference Table as either a “firearm” or “deemed non-firearm” (under 500fps/5.7J). When you are stopped by law enforcement officers they check their computer in a cruiser and immediately find out about your gun. It’s pretty simple. If you have a gun classified as “deemed non-firearm” you are free to go. I guess that the biggest problem you would have if you showed them a printout of Bob’s response! That would be something..


The problem with that is how do they know if an air gun has been modded to the hilt if they only check the make and model of a gun on a reference table?Pretty sloppy investigation I would say....but if that's all they do then I will print out your response too. I mean...just so they are reminded to ONLY use their chart when checking.Cool.Thanks

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