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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:09 pm
Posts: 1677
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Quote:
My Crosman wrote
okay..I'm just wondering why there isn't a scramble with manufacturers' to put out a .22 cal air pistol that shoots ....for instance....a 32.4 gr. Eunjin pointed at 499fps.Thats a whopping 17.91 fpe in a pistol...and STILL under 500fps.They would fly off the shelves.I'd buy one right now. I MUST be missing something with the logic regarding that law because it sounds like a manufacturer can put out a pistol with ANY fpe and keep it under 500fps and call it legal.I definitely will be waiting for a gun like that to come out.


There is not much logic in Sec. 84(3)CCC that classifies some firearms shooting under 500fps or 5.7 Joules as “deemed non-firearms” for a few sections of the CCC. The problem is that the legislators at that time neglected to relate the muzzle velocity limit 500fps to the mass of the projectile. Later on they tried to somehow correct that omission by specifying the muzzle energy of 5.7 Joules for guns that shoot in excess of 500fps. This happened when light pellets became available.
So now taking your example the interpretation is as follows. If a .22 cal air pistol shoots a 32.4 gr Eunjin pointed at 499fps that means that it will shoot the lightest 11.9gr pellets AVAILABLE in this caliber at a hundred or more fps faster which means that it’s muzzle energy will definitely be much higher than 5.7 Joules (4.2fpe) at the muzzle. It will be a restricted firearm in Canada not available without a RPAL (with a barrel longer than 105mm). Usually manufacturers tend to test airguns with the lightest pellets not the heaviest ones. Some may/may not use so called “standard” pellet which for .22 cal is 14gr and for .177 is 7.9gr.
Regarding modding like Bob said one must be quite careful with calibers .22 and larger because that may put a modder into a grey area.


Last edited by rav on Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:27 am
Posts: 1108
Location: Thunder Bay,On.
rav wrote:
Quote:
My Crosman wrote
okay..I'm just wondering why there isn't a scramble with manufacturers' to put out a .22 cal air pistol that shoots ....for instance....a 32.4 gr. Eunjin pointed at 499fps.Thats a whopping 17.91 fpe in a pistol...and STILL under 500fps.They would fly off the shelves.I'd buy one right now. I MUST be missing something with the logic regarding that law because it sounds like a manufacturer can put out a pistol with ANY fpe and keep it under 500fps and call it legal.I definitely will be waiting for a gun like that to come out.


There is not much logic in Sec. 84(3)CCC that classifies some firearms shooting under 500fps or 5.7 Joules as “deemed non-firearms” for a few sections of the CCC. The problem is that the legislators at that time neglected to relate the muzzle velocity limit 500fps to the mass of the projectile. Later on they tried to somehow correct that omission by specifying the muzzle energy of 5.7 Joules for guns that shoot in excess of 500fps. This happened when light pellets become available.
So now taking your example the interpretation is as follows. If a .22 cal air pistol shoots a 32.4 gr Eunjin pointed at 499fps that means that it will shoot the lightest 11.9gr pellets AVAILABLE in this caliber at a hundred or more fps faster which means that it’s muzzle energy will definitely be much higher than 5.7 Joules (4.2fpe) at the muzzle. It will be a restricted firearm in Canada not available without a RPAL. Usually manufacturers tend to test airguns with the lightest pellets not the heaviest ones. Some may/may not use so called “standard” pellet which for .22 cal is 14gr and for .177 is 7.9gr.


Okay.Got it. Darn...I was hoping for a legal supergun to come out some day.

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:09 pm
Posts: 1677
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Quote:
MyCrosman wrote
Okay.Got it. Darn...I was hoping for a legal supergun to come out some day.


I don’t know what is your attitude to a PAL/RPAL (some people don’t want to have it for various reasons). If you have nothing against it then go for it and you would be free to have whatever powerful gun/airgun you like.


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
rav wrote:
Quote:
MyCrosman wrote
Okay.Got it. Darn...I was hoping for a legal supergun to come out some day.


I don’t know what is your attitude to a PAL/RPAL (some people don’t want to have it for various reasons). If you have nothing against it then go for it and you would be free to have whatever powerful gun/airgun you like.


Oh, I have a PAL, high powered air rifle,shotguns and rifles but there are too many restrictions with the rpal. I would be bored stiff shooting paper targets at a firing range.Plus there is something a lot more fun with air guns over powder burners.My Venom gets all the action and my shotguns are basically for protection out there.Oh well...a 17fpe in a non rpal air pistol sounded pretty good for a while.(lol)

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 6203
Location: P.G. B.C.
Nothing boring about ipsc shooting, paper and steel. Cowboy action also is steel - loads of fun and anything but boring. It's like an 1890's - 3-gun shoot - rifle, shotgun and handgun.

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:49 am
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Location: Victoria, BC and Clarkston, WA
Daryl wrote:
Nothing boring about ipsc shooting, paper and steel. Cowboy action also is steel - loads of fun and anything but boring. It's like an 1890's - 3-gun shoot - rifle, shotgun and handgun.


been there and done all those, plus benchrest! Machine gun shoots! 1000yd stuff! 2000yd stuff with the .338 Lapua and .338/50 BMG and .50 BMG. Retired US Army sniper.....

Calculating this fpe thing has my head spinning for pellet guns! What's the software you all use to calculate fpe?

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:35 pm
Posts: 3099
Location: Alberta Canada
http://extorian.co.uk/shooting/pellets.html

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:09 pm
Posts: 1677
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Quote:
rrdstarr wrote
What's the software you all use to calculate fpe?



I use a Pyramyd Air website (http://www.pyramydair.com/article/What_ ... ust_2003/5).
It’s very handy because it gives both imperial and metric units. It also contains explanations.


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:17 pm 
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I know this is an old thread but one thing was not covered, what about bb's? According to the calc http://extorian.co.uk/shooting/pellets.html using a steel bb .177 which im finding an average at 5.1gr I could shoot at 608fps and be under the 4.2fpe limit?

Is this right? Can a bb gun in canada shoot at say 600fps and be legal or am I missing something? i want to up the power of my steel force and it being select fire i dont want any legal issues. If 608fps was the limit id still try for 550 and under but would like a little advice if anybody is up to the challenge.. any takers?? :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:06 pm
Posts: 864
Location: Meaford, Ont.
Two hundred dollars and a weekend coarse gets a PAL. Then one can shoot anything except restricted. (pistols over 500FPS)


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:47 am 
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Posts: 786
wheeliehd wrote:
Two hundred dollars and a weekend coarse gets a PAL. Then one can shoot anything except restricted. (pistols over 500FPS)


And AR-15's. Second most reason to get a restricted designation to your pal.

Really isn't the PAL rules very clear? Two conditions to understand.

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:40 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:10 am
Posts: 61
rrdstarr wrote:
... What's the software you all use to calculate fpe?


Google can do a lot of unit conversions and some basic calculations. Just google. In a browser. No special software required 8)

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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:29 pm
Posts: 6262
Location: Okanagan,BC
JWFX wrote:
I know this is an old thread but one thing was not covered, what about bb's? According to the calc http://extorian.co.uk/shooting/pellets.html using a steel bb .177 which im finding an average at 5.1gr I could shoot at 608fps and be under the 4.2fpe limit?

Is this right? Can a bb gun in canada shoot at say 600fps and be legal or am I missing something? i want to up the power of my steel force and it being select fire i dont want any legal issues. If 608fps was the limit id still try for 550 and under but would like a little advice if anybody is up to the challenge.. any takers?? :twisted:


Yes. as long as it is under the 5.7 joules limit - you are good.
So as you stated - for steel BB guns - 608 fps is the limit.

8)


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:25 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:05 am
Posts: 88
wllm995 wrote:

Yes. as long as it is under the 5.7 joules limit - you are good.
So as you stated - for steel BB guns - 608 fps is the limit.

8)



Much appreciated, thanks. So much grey area with this stuff, and im too old to be getting into trouble :axe:


wheeliehd wrote:
Two hundred dollars and a weekend coarse gets a PAL. Then one can shoot anything except restricted. (pistols over 500FPS)


I have my PAL but dont bother with the range only occasional hunting. Problem here is, if you surpass the energy limit
on a select fire BB gun you open an entirely different can of worms. At least this is how I understand it...

Besides, I prefer my BB and pellet guns where in some cases my kids and I spend thousands of rounds in my basement range
in a single night... anytime we want :supz:


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 Post subject: Re: 495 fps rule/law
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:33 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:35 pm
Posts: 891
Location: North Of Toronto
I got a Pal last yr...in Richmond Hill, Ontario. I choose to take the Full day course. Get it done out of the way:)

I was thinking of a RPal, I know it's cheaper then the other. Some people in my class were taking the Rpal the following day.

My new kind of Discovery pistol would appreciate it lol

So glad to get it!

Anyone have any 9 grain pellets?

Thanks

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