Canadian Airgun Forum

The #1 Community for Airguns in Canada!
It is currently Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:25 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


The Canadian Airgun Forums are a place for people to discuss and learn about airguns and the airgunning sport in Canada. There are lots of discussions about airguns, airgun accessories, reviews, modification and repair information, airgun events, field target and free classifieds!

 

You need to register before you can post: click the register link to proceed. Before you register, please read the forum rules. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own pictures, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free! To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.








Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:49 pm
Posts: 150
Hi,


I shoot pellet (500fps usually but occasionally I might be shooting a pal rated 1100fps) but mostly these targets will be used for 22 long rifle.

I was looking at some ready made metal spinning targets at my sporting goods store and they seemed expensive and cheaply made, I decided to go the hardware store and make a few cheap single targets.

Pretty simple concept the picture should give the idea, I made three different size targets out of T fittings, bolted one end of a chain through the fitting and looped the other end around a wire garden stake.


Wondering how concerned or if it all I should be about ricochets?

I've been shooting my 500fps pellet rifle at metal and heard the pellet whiz right back by my head, what causes ricochets and how concerned should I be at short, medium, and long range? (probably will set the small target at 20-25 yards, medium target at 50, and large at 75)

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:42 pm
Posts: 628
Location: Nova Scotia
Speaking for myself I would never shoot at anything that's rounded like your target there, that looks dangerous to shoot at. If anyhing make yourself something that traps, not deflects the pellets.

_________________
Image
eastcoastairgunner.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:49 pm
Posts: 150
Sonic wrote:
Speaking for myself I would never shoot at anything that's rounded like your target there, that looks dangerous to shoot at. If anyhing make yourself something that traps, not deflects the pellets.



A quick google search turned up "never shoot at anything metal, shoot at something that will absorb" but it was between this idea and buying a premade spinning target, also made out of hard steel.

I didn't know rounded would make a difference, I guess if anything I figured rounded would likely deflect the bullet at an abscure angle and not directly back at me.

Edit:

Also to be honest, this will probably never be shot at by anything but .22 long rifle


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:53 am
Posts: 6480
Location: Montreal
Take spoons from the dollar store and bend them to make them hang on to a rod or you can go fancier and twist the handle and drill a hole for the rod in it to look more sophisticated.
I'm sure a quick search in the "target" or "gallery" part of the forum will give you a few examples.

Personnaly I prefer cans. :wink:

_________________
Facebook is like ancient Egypt, people write on walls and worship cats

You can’t buy a single airgun for everything. Golfers use many different clubs, airgunners need more than one gun


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:49 pm
Posts: 150
I don't see how spoons are going to be any safer.


They're lighter?


i've yet to hear any explanation to how ricochets occur...I don't understand. Wouldnt a target dangling by a chain give way to a bullet rather than bounce it back to the shooter!!?

Does anyone offer an expert opinion here? I realise no one wants to say "yah sure go ahead shoot" because if I take one in the eye they dont want to feel responsible, but all liability aside, how safe is it to shoot at these, at 25, 50, 75 yards?

Yah I usually shoot cans too, but when theyre full the high velocity rounds shred them to bits, its a pain in the buttock to clean up, and when they are empty the rounds go right through without even twitching the can so you dont even know you've hit it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 2089
Location: Toronto
Ricochets are caused when the target being fired upon does not displace or absorb the kinetic energy of the projectile. This results in the energy being transferred back into the projectile, causing it to fly back to the shooter (sometimes, depending on angle of deflection) at a serious speed.

Your target should be safe since it is not fixed to anything and free to be displaced (thus, using most of the energy transferred from the projectile). The only concern is when the target is too heavy relative to the projectile, making it less likely to overcome the inertia even though it's not fixed to something. Using a lighter target will decrease the chance of harmful ricochet. Also, softer projectiles (lead pellets) will deform and absorb some of the potential ricochet energy better than hard projectiles (steel BBs)

_________________
"...await the right moment for one, and only one well-aimed shot" - Vassili Zaitsev


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:54 pm
Posts: 361
Location: Earth
Ricochet is just a bounce or deflection. Billard rules apply if you dope the equation for every variable different to billiards.
Imagining you are shooting superball material tends to adjust perspective sufficiently to be safe about it, but you need the rules at least.

If it is not going fast enough to splatter, it may get redirected at a portion of the ingress velocity relative to the angular momentum imparted by the tangent of the impact. So, if you send it to impact an angle, or worse yet - a curve, it may be so fond of your shooting as to come back to go again.

or:

Shoot carefully


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:23 pm
Posts: 3071
Location: Northern Ontario
Since they move I would not expect a problem, but you have indicated you have had ricochets, so round may be the problem. I shoot at steel all the time, but most of my targets are flat.Image
ImageImage
Image
Image

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:54 pm
Posts: 2415
Location: Northeastern Ontario
Use a pellet trap for a pellet rifle or pistol. Ricochets are unpredictable. When using your .22 LR you still have to be concerned about ricochets, perhaps even more so. Make sure that what is behind your targets will safely absorb your shots and use a bullet box, which is similar to a pellet trap but will safely take rimfire shots at the proper distance. Do not shoot at rounded, hard targets as these will cause ricochets for both pellets and .22 bullets.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:49 pm
Posts: 1248
Location: Southern Ontario
If you check the targets above, you'll see they all have a flat face and a constant angle of movement, one that's perpendicular to the projectile. Much more predictable than a rounded or random-motion target for ricochet reduction. And the more solid the target, the higher the ricochet speed.
In other words, when you hit, say, a light spinner or flattened spoon on an axle, it'll absorb most of the impact of a pellet, and rotate straight backwards. The inertia it can't absorb results in a ricochet situation. Since it only rotates in one direction, ricochets are less random (and smaller due to less speed). Use a target that's made up of curved surfaces, however, and your ability to predict possible ricochet direction goes out the window.
Shooting at a heavy, freely hanging, multi-curved target sounds fairly dangerous to me.
I'd recommend a knock-down target of some type instead...

_________________
Air and springs and CO, too


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:49 pm
Posts: 150
Hmmm...I hate it when I ask a question and don't get the answer I want.


I already bought this stuff guys, I cut up the chain I can't return this to home depot!!!!


Sigh...in this thread or any other though, one thing for certain, nobody seems to really be sure about ricochets. Half the people say never shoot at a flat surface, the other half say never shoot at a rounded surface!! To me a rounded surface seems obviously much safer, bounce a basketball off pavement it's going to come straight back up at you every time, bounce a basketball off another basketball the chances of it coming straight back up are zil.

I'm heading out to the range tommorow, I think I'll put all three targets out at 50 yards and put my eyewear on and proceed with caution. I've been searching google for a couple hours and I cant find any instance of a person seriously injured or killed by 22lr ricochet (although I'm sure if there is an instance I'm soon to hear about it)

I'd like to get a feel for for how they react at 50 yards for a while before I do anything, given hindsight I probably should have selected a lighter target like of a door hinge or something, something slat but I could have rigged it so it hung at a bit of a downward angle. I might hit home depot and hunt for some less eye damaging .22 fodder. Even if it sacrifices some durability I can always keep swapping the targets out as they deteriorate.

This could have all been avoided if canadian tire had sold a quality target at a reasonable price, but they don't, and I'm tired of buying crap. Also the premade crap targets are bulky and awkward, I liked the idea of being able to unhook the chains and throw the whole setup in the bottom of a duffel bag when I'm done, rather than having the premade ones rolling around the back of my truck.


Anyway, any other advice is still welcome, and thanks to everyone who weighed in.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:42 am
Posts: 4080
Location: Somewhere In Time
Shooting lead pellets at flat steel is fine, the pellets flatten out, they will bounce off maybe 3-5ft in a random direction. Now, the slower the pellets is moving, the less it deforms, which also means it retains more of its energy and bounces back further. We shoot targets at 10yds in FT all the time, the face plates are steel and ricochets are not an issue.

Never shoot steel BB's (or any steel ammunition for that matter) at steel targets. This relates back to the projectile deforming/transferring energy, steel shot will not deform at all and bounce right back when it hits a steel target.

All the energy in the projectile has to go somewhere, with lead the energy is dissipated by the lead being malleable and flattening/forming to what it hits, if the target is a harder material. It is essentially the opposite of what happens when shoot something like say; a rabbit, the rabbit is "softer" than lead, so after impact the projectile pierces the skin/fur and continues to travel until the energy is expelled.

_________________
"Are you guys silly? I'm still gonna send it..."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:49 pm
Posts: 150
These targets absolutely sucked. Kept falling over, didn't make a cool plinking sound.

Gonna sell them for whatever they are worth in scrap and start over with spoons.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:46 pm
Posts: 1395
Location: r Alberta
Spoons work great. I have never had a problem with ricochets. I put small orange sticky target spots on them makes them easy to see. I found they bend up pretty bad if you shoot the with a 22 at 800 fps.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:54 pm
Posts: 361
Location: Earth
Managing ricochet isn't just a self preservation thing, although that may be primary focus.
It's about energy management - from muzzle to backstop.
You want to ensure you will not be getting bounced projectiles sure, but they don't just bounce once - they bounce until they're out of energy.

A local range fielded a complaint from neighbors (who would prefer it gone) about a ricochet which got a portion of the range shut down, and they had 1800 yards clearance after the targets. Energy differences here, but principal is the same - know where your projectile is until it (all of it) stops.

While a rounded target will deflect in a non-predictable way, that is the problem.
Flat ones absorb energy better and deflect perpendicular to the target, rather then some random angle off a round item.


Even at 100 yards, my target pellets wrap skirts around the point and try to turn inside out, shooting non-pal energies.
Backstop is a small grove of trees, with a stainless pot (gong) hanging in front of an aluminum sign, hanging on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.
Few stray beyond the sheet, and if they do I have other problems.

You'll likely be fine, but suggest flat is the way to go.
Some folks hang their targets inside a tire to catch lead splatter and avoid the toxic splatter in their yard/water.

shoot safe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
News News Site map Site map SitemapIndex SitemapIndex RSS Feed RSS Feed Channel list Channel list

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

phpBB SEO