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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Location: Toronto
I have the older double 12 gram version

I just finshed off the 2 cannisters tonight that had been in and holding for 3 weeks (my bad yes i know..at least they were in the block but not in the gun all that time) and then when reloading the gas it dumped both new cylinders.

I recall they had to "pop" into the pearcing block which I dont recal the first times. When they were done farting out they were seemingly stuck in the pearcing block and when pulled out the orange seals/rings both looked just wrong...and come to think if it I think they looked like this before I put the new cannisters in but I didnt really think anything of it then.

See the picture below

I think I need to replace them and the umarex site only lists the manuals etc. for the 88gram newer models.

Any idea where I can get these orange seals/o-rings?

Also where do you guys get the split flat tool for removing seals? Do most of you make your own?

Well I was having fun..........at least it isnt the only gun I have to play with!

Any help would be appreciated thanks.


Attachments:
pierce seal.jpg
pierce seal.jpg [ 50.09 KiB | Viewed 1233 times ]

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Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:56 pm
Posts: 173
Location: Sidney, BC.
You might want to try D&L airgun.....Those end seals look like the S&W pistol end seals
which I got from them...Also I don't think its a good idea to leave that type of seal with the pressure against it all the time....as it flattens it....might be best to discharge once you finished shooting for the day..to release the pressure on the seals .....or just keep some spare seals on hand...KEN.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Posts: 431
Location: Ontario
I checked the S&W revolver and it is true that it has an orange seal but I think it is a different type. It works the same as all the other CO2 pistols by sealing the top of the CO2 cartridge around the piercing pin. In the case of the Walther lever action rifle, the seal works by sealing around the neck of the cartridge.

I verified both my rifle and my carbine. My rifle, being older and more frequently used, have seals that looked frayed like the one shown in your picture.

The carbine has one side showing some marks but the other is pristine. It seems that it might be an o-ring as it has a thin and round crossection and it is also at some distance away from the surface where the pin is located.

From what I saw when I repaired an old Crosman T38, the seal that goes around the piercing pin is more like a Live Saver shape (the candy) and goes around the pin in direct contact with the surface.

I found it strange when you mentioned that both cartridges emptied at the same time because the T-bar, that is pushing on the two cartridges, has a tendency to not do it equally. For me, there was always one that pierced first and as there was no other place to go, the pressure was transferred to the second one which was then pierced too.

I also noticed they stay stuck in the cavities and have to be pulled out when they are remove after the CO2 is exhausted.

As for the thing to unscrew, I made some. When it is used for a valve, it needs a notch in the middle but in you case any flat plate of the right width should be enough.

I do not know what is the orange material but after removal, if it looks like a o-ring, I would try to match it with one from a Princess Auto O-ring kit and give it a try to see if it fix the problem.

I was and I am still currently using the Crosman CO2 cartridges and I am wondering if they could be the cause of the fraying on the seals as the neck is slightly different than the Walther (or Umarex) CO2 cartridges that were in my rifle when I bought it.

This link show a picture of the Walther cartridges: http://www.amazon.com/Walther-12G-Cartr ... B004VWL3F4

Good luck.

R-Gun Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Hi guys thanks for the info.

R-gun I am also using crosman cartdidges so I may need to switch to walther.

I dont usually keep gas in the guns but this time I was so excited to use it when I got it home late at night I gased it up and shot a few rounds..I thought taking the block out of the stock would be a good enough measuer but...heh live and learn and repair!

Glad to hear someone else has the same visable and tactile circumastances.

And yes it let go gas one then the other as I kept tightening thing the first would stop gasing out..but nope.

I will first try to get them out and see what they look like then hit the princes.

I also have a call into Smith surplus in Kingston. They are umarex reps and Kyle there is great at going above and beyond.
I will also ping D&L but they are in the far far away land from TO.

As for the removing tool I also heard of guys grinding down deep sock sets since they have a while in the middle already and you can make various diameter tools. I think I will try that.

thanks again guys and I will keep you informed....poor little gun all alone again now......I may let it watch me use its friends!

Murray

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Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

http://plinkercases.ca/


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Well I was supposed to be doing something else today but you guys got me going.

Whipped up a tool from a deep socket...have dremmel will dream.

It is an O ring and from the damage I see 2 things happening:

1) one was just fraying as you say and I bet it is due to the larger cannister neck and perhaps hasnt been shot a lot and could have benefitted from some silicon? and

2) one was pinched to uselessness by what I think was the end of the cannister.

So here is what I thnk happened.

In my ignorance I set the cannister in but did not hand seat it all the way so as the bar ushed down it pushed the head of the cannister off centre pinching the ring against the side of the bushing then when pearced out she came..the the other leaked since it was pearced first and I didnt get the second seated properly fast enough and then stopped when all gas broke loose. I was afraid to over tighten and wrecking the pearcing pins etc.

So it seems an easy fix if I can find a match for the rings at PA..after I do the something else I was supposed to be doing today of course.

If I have learned anything with you guys it is not to be afraid to take soem of this stuff apart.

here are some pics


Attachments:
fubar ring.jpg
fubar ring.jpg [ 12.8 KiB | Viewed 1195 times ]
parts out.jpg
parts out.jpg [ 63.16 KiB | Viewed 1195 times ]
tool end.jpg
tool end.jpg [ 16.46 KiB | Viewed 1195 times ]

_________________
Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

http://plinkercases.ca/
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:21 pm
Posts: 431
Location: Ontario
[URL=http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/RGun_Pete/media/1377%20Piston%20seal%20fix/Lowreso-ringkit_zpsb852949a.jpg.html]Image[/URL

Hi Plinkercases!

I am not sure if you already went to Princess Auto but this the look of the O-ring kit.

Sometimes they are on sale for 12 bucks.

For sure there are some sizes you will never use but in my case I was able to fix a Crosman T38, a Crosman mark I piercing knob, a Marksman 2004 piston seal and a Acro II.

I also made a bunch of 10 shots mags for my CZ 200 T and one of the size was really handy for holding the pellets in place.

Anyway for the price, it is really useful.

R-Gun Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Greetings R-gun Pete,

I did not get theree today. I will go tomorrow and check for the kit.

I do have a 38c which also blew something.

Just glad to know that i most likely can be back in business tomorrow if all goes well.

Any tips on how to get the ring inserted? Do you silicon them first?

_________________
Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

http://plinkercases.ca/


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:56 pm
Posts: 173
Location: Sidney, BC.
Just a note....those black O-ring will probably be Buna which will absorb CO2 gas and expand... It doesn't look like the end seal housing is captured. so you might want to have spares on hand...The original is seal looks like a type of urethane which will not absorb the CO2 gas....KEN.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Location: Toronto
Ken,

" It doesn't look like the end seal housing is captured. so you might want to have spares on hand"

I get the material science type comments and will ask at the shop about getting a material match if possible. But not sure what you mean in the quote here. Is the end seal the green one? and what do you mean that it is not captured. that is where it was seated when I removed the brass bushing type deal.

I dont think there were any rings or seasl under or on the the metal pearcing plate. i will check tomorrow...tired now..form shooting my new DW 2.5 inch shiny tiny.

Thanks for all the help so far. Hope we get it workign tomorrow.

Murray

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Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

http://plinkercases.ca/


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:59 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:21 pm
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Location: Ontario
KEN. wrote:
Just a note....those black O-ring will probably be Buna which will absorb CO2 gas and expand... It doesn't look like the end seal housing is captured. so you might want to have spares on hand...The original is seal looks like a type of urethane which will not absorb the CO2 gas....KEN.


Hi Ken!

I know that the black o-rings can possibly swell when exposed to CO2 depending of their composition but those have done the job for me numerous time.

In fact, for sealing around the neck, if they swell a bit it should even be better. After shooting all the CO2, it will just be a question of waiting for them to return to their normal size before removing the cartridges.

You are entirely right, o-rings come in different type of material for different uses and it is best to find the right ones (which is not always easy).

R-Gun Pete

Plinkercases wrote:
Greetings R-gun Pete,

I did not get theree today. I will go tomorrow and check for the kit.

I do have a 38c which also blew something.

Just glad to know that i most likely can be back in business tomorrow if all goes well.

Any tips on how to get the ring inserted? Do you silicon them first?



On mine I just used the same pelgun oil that I put on the tip of cartridges.

For your 38c, you can check on the Crosman site, they should have the diagrams.

R-Gun Pete


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:03 am 
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Location: Toronto
R-Gun Pete thanks.

I will let you guys know what I come up with and how it works.

I am off ot PA after church today so should know something by dinner about how it all goes.

Thanks for the help lads.

_________________
Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

http://plinkercases.ca/


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:13 am
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Location: Toronto
Well lunch bag let down at PA. I bought a 10 dollar 18 size set but it did not have the size....couldnt see spending twice as much but....perhaps should have.
I found a rings speciality company in North York that seems to make all sizes with different materails so I will call them Monday.
I guess the Scots in me was too frugal and actually wasted gas!
More shall be revealed.

_________________
Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

http://plinkercases.ca/


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:21 pm
Posts: 431
Location: Ontario
Sorry to hear that Plinkercases...

Did you get the kit as shown in my picture?

I know that I use more of the small ones than the large ones but fot the Marksman 2004 and the Crosman Mark II a couple of the large o-rings were useful. So, for what I did with my box, I don't have any regrets. I even rebuild a Crosman 150 valve with this kit.

I got my rifle out of the closet and checked the orange ones. It is true that I don't have one in my hand but it seems there was one or two sizes from the box that would be close.

So what is the problem you found? Totally wrong diametre or not fat enough?

R-Gun Pete


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:56 pm 
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I couldn't match the diameter or the thickness sad to say.
But I am hopeful that teh o-ring shop near by will have an exact match.
But yer there are lots of rings in the kit I got that look useful...if even for dripping taps etc...
I actuall used one to help repair a lamp believe it or not so not a cpmplete waste for sure.
I will keep at it.

_________________
Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

http://plinkercases.ca/


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:25 am 
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Location: Toronto
Success if even only temporary!

I got a size match from a great fella Lyndon at Able Seal and design at 5511 steeles west in vaughn.

He spent some time with me then when I asked how much he said "what change do you have in your pocket"...I had none so he made me change for the pop machine and a root beer and I gave him a toonie...good deal there. He wasnt going to make change just for me just to pay him....but if I needed it for a drink he would...class act.

Buna but 90 duro hardness so for now it is working...fun to get in for sure but made it.

Still having Kyle at SAS in ktown look for a urythane one as a cross match from another umarex if he can.

I will be in Kingston last weekend of the month to drop in and meet him..a very helpful guy there too!

If I get to sleep then wake up early enough I will be down in the range for sure.

happy guy now!

_________________
Keep you powder dry and your seals oiled.
Shoot straight and safe.

http://plinkercases.ca/


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