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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:11 am 
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Point taken, I should have said, "consistently hit a 50m KZ".

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:39 am 
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Jon wrote:
I would disagree you don have to be able to hold a steady aim to hit, timings everything but need a modern rifle.
$1000 is entry level, spending less wont work and wasted money. If don't spend that amount as a minimum your probably going to miss any way.


I would have to disagree with this...

The accuracy of your gun is much more important, mainly for those just starting out who don't have the money for a nice gun and a nice scope. I shot a S410 in MPR FT stock with a Fitco 8-32x50 for quite a while before I got my EV2/Nikko Diamond and had great reults using Mil-dots. That Fitco was a absolute POS, but the hole-on-hole accuracy of the S410 was still exemplified by the $120 scope.

Doesn't matter how nice of a scope you have if your gun is not accurate...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Well, I don't know what the best FT scope is, I only know that I don't think I have it yet! I'm using a Falcon T50 and while I'm not unhappy with it I have the urge to pick up a Sightron 10X50 with the LRMOA reticle and compare the 2. I was about to pull the trigger on a March 8x80 but after a discussion with Robbie that left me wondering if the money spent was worth it I changed my mind. Two things I know for sure; 1) when I miss it's not the equipment, it's the guy pulling the trigger! 2) Everyone has a different opinion on what's "best".

I agree with dhb on the need for practice to be consistent.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:13 am 
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jgoodz420 wrote:
Jon wrote:
I would disagree you don have to be able to hold a steady aim to hit, timings everything but need a modern rifle.
$1000 is entry level, spending less wont work and wasted money. If don't spend that amount as a minimum your probably going to miss any way.


I would have to disagree with this...

The accuracy of your gun is much more important, mainly for those just starting out who don't have the money for a nice gun and a nice scope. I shot a S410 in MPR FT stock with a Fitco 8-32x50 for quite a while before I got my EV2/Nikko Diamond and had great reults using Mil-dots. That Fitco was a absolute POS, but the hole-on-hole accuracy of the S410 was still exemplified by the $120 scope.

Doesn't matter how nice of a scope you have if your gun is not accurate...


I've been following this post closely and waiting for some one to at last talk some sense. Thanks Joel.

For more than 3 years I shot competetively with my Tasco Custom Shop topped Ripley AR5s and did pretty well with this set up. Clearly today it would be useless if some of the tosh written in this post is to be believed.

Are we really to believe that if we buy a sub $1000 scope and hit a targets KZ that would be just lucky?

I really hope that the readers of this post will not take too many of the responses as gospel and become despondent.

DaveD :D

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:55 pm 
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I dont see any problem with any of the posts thus far.

The question was what is the "best". Not what we use...have used....can afford to use...it is a question of what is the best. Its not about what scope we can hit some targets with. It is asking what scope has the best combination of optical clarity...accurate range finding...mechanical quality to produce click repeatability. Subjective to a point but most accurately answered by one with a broad range of personal experience of many brands and better yet multiples of each offering to determine quality control. Jon has had that personal experience. So the wise person will listen to a balanced non biased person who has broad exposure. This is not a discussion of what is the best hunter divison scope or what scope a new shooter needs to buy to have fun while shooting as a beginner. Not all shooters have the natural talent to "justify" the purchase of the "best" gun and scope but it certainly is his or her right to it they want to. Use what equipment you want and take it as seriously or not as you want.

I have owned many varieties over the years but have had little experience with the higher end offerings these days like Jon and others have (march/s@b) just short term testing sessions here and there.

My favorite front focus is the Bushnell 4200 8-32. The 6-24 would also do. This was my conclusion from owning Bushnell...weaver...burris.... sightron... mueller and others. The 4200 is a very tough scope with super optics and can range well for a front focus scope.

For side focus scopes I have owned and tested Deben...BSA 10-50...all Nikko Diamond 10-50 series 1-2-3...Tasco Custom Shops...Falcon T50...Leupold competition...gen 1 and 2 of the hawk sidewinder series...Leapets 8-32....and others I cant remember at this time. The generation 3 Nikko was the best ranging scope and the Leupold comp had the clearest glass as well as a pretty good ranging scope 40x. It also has large spacing and light weight. Sightron will be my next test and I still own a good numbet of the other scopes so I wont have to go by memory when comparing.

For current production side focus open FT scopes likely the Falcon 10-50 is the best lower end option...sighron 10-50 for mid range....and ???? for upper end.

In the end we finish where we start...not much new.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Location: England.
jgoodz420 wrote:
The accuracy of your gun is much more important, mainly for those just starting out who don't have the money for a nice gun and a nice scope. I shot a S410 in MPR FT stock with a Fitco 8-32x50 for quite a while before I got my EV2/Nikko Diamond and had great reults using Mil-dots. That Fitco was a absolute POS, but the hole-on-hole accuracy of the S410 was still exemplified by the $120 scope.

Doesn't matter how nice of a scope you have if your gun is not accurate...


What your saying is ok for paper punching, in FT its one shot no practice shots. 3 yards out its a miss and certainly that scope wouldn't cut it at even club level.
Mildots not as accurate as dialling, what do you do when theoretically should have 3.7 mildots, a whole number ok but only falls at one range.
A rifles a rifle but usually the S300 on are ok and nothing wrong with them. Saying that I haven't seen anyone nationally use one since 1995 an ex world champ. Good starter rifles or for hft.

When I first started out with .22 HW80 and 3-12 scope I was plinking on proper courses. This led me on to a Diana 52 with Tasco TR6-24, learnt the ropes and progressed to a Titan MC020 with Zeiller 8-32 I still have some where. Made a one off rifle cost $110 and used Zeiller to shoot for the region then progressed to Tasco 8-40CU best scope ever had.
Point being I have used the lowest of the lowest at national level to the most expensive kit any where in the world circa $10000, nothing better than beating expensive kit with a cheapy. You certainly shouldnt buy your way in, learn the ropes, try other peoples kit out and decide for yourself.

In another post about holding gun stable, I cant some days struggle to keep on plate. As you move about time it right with the swing but you wont be able to do that with a Rapid platform or springer in fact most rifles short of Fens, Anchutz, my hand made and such like.
Its been 19 years since I could group good, many others are the same and they don't do bad inc 2011 world champ.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:51 pm 
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blade57 wrote:
For more than 3 years I shot competetively with my Tasco Custom Shop topped Ripley AR5s and did pretty well with this set up. Clearly today it would be useless if some of the tosh written in this post is to be believed.

Are we really to believe that if we buy a sub $1000 scope and hit a targets KZ that would be just luck. DaveD :D


The old 94 Tasco can still cut it, I had 7 of them and still have one knocking around that was used to get 8th in the worlds in 98. In your own words sub $1000, these Tasco scopes were half as much again 19 years ago over a current T50 $829! I wouldnt like to guess the value if still made today.
2nd in this years world champs was using an old Tasco bought 2nd hand off ebay for $190!

Ripper AR5 is still a current model with a stock circa $3k, they have just gone out of fashion with the sponsored boys going over to AA for a better deal.
If your only shooting sub 12ft/lb up to 45 yards any scope will do even a 4x40, even easier with high power and longer range. 25 yards zero is holdover top of kill at 40, pretty sure most people can judge up to that distance by eye.
Where your cheapy scope wont cut it is deciphering longer range 47 to 55 yards, 2 yards out its a miss. tell me that's tosh.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:30 pm 
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Now that's true Jon.
It takes a little more money, a lot of practice, a good scope and gun, at least something like a EV2 or better. I found out the hard way. It hurt my pocket a little, but I have learned, that if you buy the better equipment from the start, you will be more dedicated to the sport. You don't have to buy 10 guns by the time you get to the good rifle. I love FT, I like the idea that conditions change, and that there is no such thing as 2 targets that are in the same conditions twice.

One more thing about the scopes. If I decide to go with the Leupold, I have to tinker with it, to get it shoot what I want it to do. No worries, at least I know, it will not give up on me in a moment's notice.

Leupold is the best scope for the job.

Now I only have to get rid of all my other scopes.
Nah not right now.

Biagio

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:00 am 
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Leupold is all the US Military uses, or did the years I served. Never heard of one missing a beat.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:05 am 
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Jon wrote:
Tom the Comp will perform much better with a 3" to 3 1/2" wheel, gaps aint everything. Top shots are using as little as 60mm diameter less than 2 1/2" with the bulk around 81mm diameter.
If refocused for closer range those gaps will become even larger, 5mm is more than adequate to guage within 2 foot.

Thanks for the tip Jon, I just acquired a lathe, so I'll try making myself one out of Delrin.

dhb wrote:
Not to rain on the Best Scope parade, but if one cannot hold the crosshairs in the KZ at 50m, then the return on investment of 40,000 pellets for practice will greatly exceed spending the same $1000 on a 'better' scope.

I think many people can hold the crosshairs within the Hit Zone at 50m. It's rare that I can't, and talking with others, they're usually able to do it too. Everyone still misses, due to wind, 'pulls' or other human error.

Now I can also believe that a lot of top shooters can still be at the top without holding within the Hit Zone, but that's what 40,0000 pellets does. Since I started shooting in 2007, I've not shot more than 10,000 pellets - that's only 20 tins. But then again, I did get my first air rifle when I was 12, and probably put 20,000 shots through that rifle from the ages of 12-15.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:16 am 
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Location: England.
In all theres no perfect scope, its a compromise and whatever you can use to best advantage.
You really have to try these individual scopes out even the same model.

Whats coming over is a sense quality to do the scope justice. Its not like that scopes are bought for FT to range find with whereas you don't with rim or centrefire at 2km. Of course the fundamentals are paramount ie hold zero, dials repeatably.
Equally could be a cheap scope to even a March 80.
If your running high power you wont need good range finding abilities up to 55 yards, its like sub 12ft/lb shooting out to 45 yards which is only around 30mm drop off. Seen reigning US champs trajectory.


Tom if you try a smaller wheel you may need to spin it up quick, stop dead that's it.
Being used to a 106mm wheel on my March and now gone over to T50's, I am finding a tendency to overshoot the range. Not exactly sure why but focus is really free, can see the snap come in over 60 yards probably within 300mm either side but stopping it bang on with a 5 1/4" (131mm) wheel is proving awkward.

Over here the Sightron is 2 1/2 times dearer than a T50 and generally better build which you expect.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Hi Jon

I have to aggree. I like my Nikko for now, the T50 is a little junky, but OK.

What I like to have is a store where I can walk in to and hold the scope to my eye, and see if I like it and fiddle with it for a while before I buy it. Here on the West Coast we don't really have that oppertunity to do that. All the scopes I have, are bought over the Internet. I hate that. It's what I like to call, "hit or miss" situation.

A little frustrating

See you later

Biagio

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