Canadian Airgun Forum

The #1 Community for Airguns in Canada!
It is currently Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:13 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


The Canadian Airgun Forums are a place for people to discuss and learn about airguns and the airgunning sport in Canada. There are lots of discussions about airguns, airgun accessories, reviews, modification and repair information, airgun events, field target and free classifieds!

 

You need to register before you can post: click the register link to proceed. Before you register, please read the forum rules. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own pictures, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free! To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.








Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 2076
Location: Toronto
Hmm detuning it shouldn't be that difficult. Just need to plug the transfer port between the main valve to the smaller bleed chamber. Of course you would swap out all the old seals with the newer ones.

Regarding the position of the valve, it is more likely that extra length of the old valve extends further back of the gun rather than the pump piston being shorter. In other words, the front edge of both valves would be in the same location.

_________________
"...await the right moment for one, and only one well-aimed shot" - Vassili Zaitsev


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:51 am
Posts: 160
Location: Ottawa : Canada
Thought from left field, if you were to gut the extra chamber and plug the exhaust port on it you would have extra volume for more shots, of course you would have to pump lots more first.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:54 pm
Posts: 361
Location: Earth
I destroyed an old 760 in my youth with this configuration.
I was good at taking things apart, but they didn't always go back together back then.
Since you got yours out without stripping anything, the suggestion to plug the hole may allow you use of the original valve and the volume it comes with.
You could chop the relief valve and solder it shut, use solder as a permanent thread seal when it's reinstalled.

Please post the results whatever you choose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:03 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Kelowna, BC
Wow...fellas...a millions thanks for all the replies and links!

AirGunEric wrote:
I didn't realize you had the older configuration valve. You can use the seals/valvestem from the new valve in the old valve- except for one o-ring found in the older valve (#2200A035). You will also need an o-ring for the vent- a .22 bolt o-ring is the same size. If you're stuck as a result of this, send me an email


That makes two of us! If I had taken it apart beforehand I would have spotted this issue.

EverHopeful wrote:
Fascinating! A pressure release valve, from when they detuned Canadian guns a half decent way (I can't believe the stuff they're doing these days). I'd love to see inside the valves if you feel like opening them up. I can't quite imagine how they work. The 'wassat' photo makes it look like the pressure sensing port is inside the main valve, but then you wouldn't need anything as bulky as the outside bit, and I don't know how you'd combine that with the normal valve function. The alternative is that the external bit contains a sprung relief valve that is open to the high pressure in the valve, but then what's that apparent sliding port in the 'wassat' photo?


Your guess is as good as mine. Now that I know it's a pressure release valve, it honestly seems like a whole mess of over-engineering...

TriggerHappy416 wrote:
Hmm detuning it shouldn't be that difficult. Just need to plug the transfer port between the main valve to the smaller bleed chamber. Of course you would swap out all the old seals with the newer ones.

Regarding the position of the valve, it is more likely that extra length of the old valve extends further back of the gun rather than the pump piston being shorter. In other words, the front edge of both valves would be in the same location.


That was my first thought as well...provided I can get the required seals.
The rear of the valve is locked in place (ie. the transfer ports line up perfectly, same length valve stem, etc) so the new (shorter) version must have a longer piston.

airhawk wrote:
Thought from left field, if you were to gut the extra chamber and plug the exhaust port on it you would have extra volume for more shots, of course you would have to pump lots more first.


That would be awesome. Hmmm...decisions, decisions... 8)

...and now, prepare yourselves for a newbtastic question:
I'd like to take the valves apart to document their internal differences. What's the best way to get this done? A couple of lockjaw pliers with leather wrapped around the valve?
Thanks again everyone!

_________________
Crosman 2100 (from my childhood in the 80's...in the process of fixing her up)
Crosman 2200 Magnum || Crosman 1377 || Crosman 357 || Umarex XBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:10 pm 
Offline
Supporting Member 2009
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:37 am
Posts: 3468
Location: Out There
The only internal differences are the front-end sealing method on the air input- the brass valve has a brass check valve with an o-ring around it for sealing, the aluminum valve has a smaller delrin check valve- the larger size of the exterior is to accommodate the excess size of the brass check and o-ring- nothing more.

It is possible that if you plug up the brass bleed hole and over pump it, you will lock up the valve that much easier- these rifles were being built before "detuning for Canada" became part of the picture- all US versions of the rifle had the same configuration- the main idea was so that the valve could not over-pressurize and lock, a result of this was that the maximum power was limited as a result- but not to under 500fps- somewhere around 575fps as I recall (this is on the 2200, not the 2100).

_________________
www.scopesandammo.com/storefront



Please note: I do not conduct business through Private Messages (PM's) in online forums. Please do not send a 'PM" with a business-related question.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:03 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Kelowna, BC
AirGunEric wrote:
The only internal differences are the front-end sealing method on the air input- the brass valve has a brass check valve with an o-ring around it for sealing, the aluminum valve has a smaller delrin check valve- the larger size of the exterior is to accommodate the excess size of the brass check and o-ring- nothing more.

It is possible that if you plug up the brass bleed hole and over pump it, you will lock up the valve that much easier- these rifles were being built before "detuning for Canada" became part of the picture- all US versions of the rifle had the same configuration- the main idea was so that the valve could not over-pressurize and lock, a result of this was that the maximum power was limited as a result- but not to under 500fps- somewhere around 575fps as I recall (this is on the 2200, not the 2100).


Makes sense. So then in theory I could JB Weld that entire hole shut and provided I don't over-pump it I'd be back in action? Just trying to figure out my options here...

_________________
Crosman 2100 (from my childhood in the 80's...in the process of fixing her up)
Crosman 2200 Magnum || Crosman 1377 || Crosman 357 || Umarex XBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:41 pm 
Offline
Supporting Member 2009
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:37 am
Posts: 3468
Location: Out There
EricTheRed wrote:
Makes sense. So then in theory I could JB Weld that entire hole shut and provided I don't over-pump it I'd be back in action? Just trying to figure out my options here...


If that is your leak source, then yes- but replacing all the other o-rings would be a safe bet, and it might be easier to just install an o-ring over the plunger as it came from the factory than re-engineering. That being said, if the factory 'plug' is bent on it's shaft, it will never re-seal correctly (don't ask me how I know) and plugging it or fabricating a new plug would be the only options.

_________________
www.scopesandammo.com/storefront



Please note: I do not conduct business through Private Messages (PM's) in online forums. Please do not send a 'PM" with a business-related question.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:03 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Kelowna, BC
AirGunEric wrote:
If that is your leak source, then yes- but replacing all the other o-rings would be a safe bet, and it might be easier to just install an o-ring over the plunger as it came from the factory than re-engineering. That being said, if the factory 'plug' is bent on it's shaft, it will never re-seal correctly (don't ask me how I know) and plugging it or fabricating a new plug would be the only options.


Gotcha. Any tips on opening up that old valve without scratching the ever-living bejeezus out of it?

_________________
Crosman 2100 (from my childhood in the 80's...in the process of fixing her up)
Crosman 2200 Magnum || Crosman 1377 || Crosman 357 || Umarex XBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:46 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Canada
If it's the joint between the relief valve and the valve body that's leaking...just change the o-ring.

Hardware store nitrile/buna will be fine.

Interesting that it's not threaded into the valve body...worked on a few 760's that had the relief valve and they were threaded. Still have the valve from one somewhere.(parted out after it's dissatisfied owner wrapped it around a tree :shock: )

760's were great...the relief valve could be maxed out without even taking the thing apart. :lol:

Al


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:03 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Kelowna, BC
Gippeto wrote:
If it's the joint between the relief valve and the valve body that's leaking...just change the o-ring.

Hardware store nitrile/buna will be fine.


Yeah, but I'd like to bring this puppy up to full power. I had always assumed that it was a full power model (my dad used it to take out sapsuckers when I was a kid). I have my PAL so there's no issue on that front.

Quote:
(parted out after it's dissatisfied owner wrapped it around a tree :shock: )


LOL! Someone needs a touch of anger management, methinks. :lol:

_________________
Crosman 2100 (from my childhood in the 80's...in the process of fixing her up)
Crosman 2200 Magnum || Crosman 1377 || Crosman 357 || Umarex XBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:03 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Kelowna, BC
Right-o...here's an update.

I took apart both valves and here is what I found:

Image
Image
Image

Both have a delrin-type check valve, but the new one is slightly larger and has a spring guide.
The new valve spring is shorter, but is much stiffer. When I took the original valve apart, it basically exploded in my hands because of the length of the spring. When I took the new valve apart, there was very little pressure from the spring. That being said, when put together I can depress the original valve stem by hand...that's almost impossible for me to do with the new valve stem. So...less hammer force is required by the original. That, or the spring is just worn out from sitting around for so many years....
As for the valve stem, the top hat and stem itself are each approximately 1mm longer on the original.

On another note, the new hammer spring is roughly 1cm longer than the original.

When viewing the pressure relief valve port from the inside, it appears as though it is meant to stay open (as evidenced by the photos). In the first one you can see the location at the top in the empty valve, and in the second you can still see light coming through even though the valve stem and top hat are in place. So...I stuck some JB Weld in there and hopefully soon we'll see if there is any improvement!

Image
Image
Image

_________________
Crosman 2100 (from my childhood in the 80's...in the process of fixing her up)
Crosman 2200 Magnum || Crosman 1377 || Crosman 357 || Umarex XBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:16 pm
Posts: 1787
Interesting. One thing - is there anything else anchoring the original valve in place, or was it held by the stem of the relief valve? If so, you might need to add a screw or two to hold it in place.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:50 am 
Offline
Supporting Member 2009

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:41 pm
Posts: 997
Location: GTA
I have seen quite a few of these. I usually just take out the guts of the relief valve and soldered the hole shut as mentioned.
If you look at the bottom of the 2100 and I think the 2200 there is a small hole on the bottom of the reciever. That hole is where the exhaust of the reliefe valve is.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:54 am 
Offline
Supporting Member 2009
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:37 am
Posts: 3468
Location: Out There
Son of a bit#h- that is another variation valve you have- the one I was talking about has a different check valve with an o-ring over it. Based on yours having delrin in there, it must be some sort of mid-version, between the original brass valve and the aluminum versions.

_________________
www.scopesandammo.com/storefront



Please note: I do not conduct business through Private Messages (PM's) in online forums. Please do not send a 'PM" with a business-related question.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:46 am
Posts: 4121
Nice pic's of the internals, good to see you cracked it open. :wink:
so weird how many deferent variation's of 2100 valves.

_________________
"A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle"

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
News News Site map Site map SitemapIndex SitemapIndex RSS Feed RSS Feed Channel list Channel list

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

phpBB SEO