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 Post subject: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:17 am 
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greetings

by this post, i do not wish to start a forum legal battle which is clearly the expertise of lawyers and the courts, not us;

but...in browsing airgun dealers this fine morning, i took a tour of NBO, on his site, the seller claims to have called the RCMP, and was told that only the manufacturer is allowed to tune a rifle from non-pal to pal, and vice versa, i find this weird since it would very easy to swap a main spring and make your rifle PAL rated, the parts are easy to get, and i haven't seen ominous posts on here stating that you couldn't , so i was under the impression that if you had your PAL, then this could be done without issue or fear of criminal charges

the only way i can figure this to be the case, is that the firearm act is not self regulated obviously, its a legal document, so its application has been more or less thrown to the RCMP for management, determining what is prohibited and not, but could they also interpret the act in such a way....would there be a section in the act that specifically states that you can't have it unless done by the manufacturer

think i'll run this by legal advice, i know quite a few lawyers :?

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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:44 am 
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I may be incorrect, but here's my understanding about the topic. The RCMP uses the manufacturers' specifications as to whether an air rifle is sub-500 fps or not. So when a manufacturer such as Diana or Crosman declare that their product is less than 500 fps, then the RCMP accepts that, and the same applies when the product is declared to be over 500 fps. These "statements" from the manufacturer determine whether the gun purchaser needs a PAL as far as the RCMP is concerned. The RCMP doesn't have a "system" for recognizing how or when a PAL air rifle is detuned or when a non-PAL air rifle is tuned to over 500 fps. In other words, the RCMP is not able to put its "stamp of approval" on a rifle that has been altered from the original state it was in when it came from the manufacturer.

Its not "illegal" to detune an air rifle to be sub-500 fps or to power it up to be over 500 fps. The RCMP has no way of knowing when this is done. What the RCMP and other police forces are concerned about is whether the gun owner has the proper licence to possess and acquire an air gun that has a muzzle velocity over 500 fps.


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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:08 am 
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Penage Guy wrote:
I may be incorrect, but here's my understanding about the topic. The RCMP uses the manufacturers' specifications as to whether an air rifle is sub-500 fps or not. So when a manufacturer such as Diana or Crosman declare that their product is less than 500 fps, then the RCMP accepts that, and the same applies when the product is declared to be over 500 fps. These "statements" from the manufacturer determine whether the gun purchaser needs a PAL as far as the RCMP is concerned. The RCMP doesn't have a "system" for recognizing how or when a PAL air rifle is detuned or when a non-PAL air rifle is tuned to over 500 fps. In other words, the RCMP is not able to put its "stamp of approval" on a rifle that has been altered from the original state it was in when it came from the manufacturer.

Its not "illegal" to detune an air rifle to be sub-500 fps or to power it up to be over 500 fps. The RCMP has no way of knowing when this is done. What the RCMP and other police forces are concerned about is whether the gun owner has the proper licence to possess and acquire an air gun that has a muzzle velocity over 500 fps.


yup, that was my basic understanding, and did not question myself on this at all, i thought, i have my PAL, and if i want to swap a spring and make one of my sub 500 fps rifle pal rated, shouldn't be an issue....or so i thought before i read it on the seller's website, i actually had planned to do exactly that....but will check further now

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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:58 am 
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The statement that law enforcement is concerned with people having the appropriate license/permit(s) for what they possess is correct. Beyond that, the rest is not accurate.

I might point out that NBO was/is converting Marauders to be "legal" in Canada- which had nothing to do with the manufacturer (Crosman). If his statement is true, how could he be doing this?

That being said, and where issues could potentially come up- the Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which is controlled by the RCMP/Canadian Firearms Centre. This is the reference tool law enforcement uses when they encounter a "gun" of any type- they look up the gun to see if it is in the FRT and what it's classification may be. As most law enforcement people are not firearms "experts" this is the only real tool they have to guide them. So, if you have a "detuned" gun that has not been entered in the FRT as being available as a "detuned" or "non-firearm", their initial thinking would be that the gun in question is, in fact, a "firearm". Of course, the FRT is not "law"- it is only a guide- so if we assume a worst-case scenario where someone is come upon by law enforcement with a "detuned" gun that is not listed in the FRT as being available in a "detuned" format, then someone will have to "prove" the firearm is under the 500fps (-ish) threshold to eliminate any possible charges that would be the case if it were in fact a "firearm" requiring licensing.

Likewise, a "detuned" product that someone "tuned" to be over 500fps would have the same situation, except law enforcement might assume the gun is under 500fps when, in fact, it is not.

From a licensing/ability to do modifications, anyone can do such, if they have the correct license to touch what the gun is, or will be, after the modifications. I.e. if you take a 2240 and decide to make it into a 2250 that is above 500fps, you better have your R-PAL in hand. Likewise, if you have a 2250 in it's "normal" undetuned state and you are detuning it to below 500fps, you need your R-PAL when you start the work (i.e. it is still "Restricted" until you put it under 500fps).

That being said, most police forces do testing on airguns they come across as part of their work (assuming of course it was not being used in the commission of a crime, as then it's classification would be irrelevant, it would be a "firearm" used in a crime in any event). In my experience it has been to try and establish if what should be/is labeled as a "detuned" product is in fact over 500fps, or a "firearm" requiring a license for which the owner/possessor does not have. I have sold many chrony's to different police departments in Canada just for this purpose, and the basic theme seems to be something along the lines of being called to a domestic dispute, finding a "detuned" airgun, or even an airgun that was never offered over 500fps sitting in a closet, and then they want to test it to see if they might be able to lay additional charges on people if they do not possess the correct licensing, it was stored incorrectly, whatever. The reverse is also true, if someone is approached by law enforcement with a gun that is "detuned" but not in the FRT as being available as "detuned"- it must still be established that it in fact, is not detuned, for a firearms licensing/possession/permit/storage law violation to have occurred in relation to it.

The problem in all this is that the CFC is the body that classifies all guns for Canada that are in the FRT- Prohibited, Restricted, Non-Restricted, non-firearm, and the RCMP proper has been given the mandate to interpret what, when specific standards are not defined in the law, a specific gun should be classified as. In my experience as a dealer, they do not want to be very precise on what makes for a "detuned" gun in respect to modifications- i.e. they make vague statements as to what is required, discourage dealers from sending in guns to be judged/classified for entry in the FRT as "detuned" and will not commit to anything if the gun is not advertised by the manufacturer as available in a "Detuned" format. Apparently, they are trying to keep the FRT as "neat and tidy" as possible with little room for discussion/debate. This, however, still does not negate the fact that from a legal perspective, an airgun is not a "firearm" requiring a license if it is incapable of shooting over 500fps when in operating condition.

For years, people have been trying to have the FRT/gun classifications for it be done by a neutral third-party technical group, not RCMP staff- using a definitive set of technical guidelines, not alot of "fuzz and vaguery" where they can change their mind on things almost at a whim (look at the SwissArms situation recently). In fact, a Bill was entered in Parliament (independently) on this issue, and a petition created- which, in my opinion, anyone who is a gun owner/potential gun owner should support:

Cheryl Gallant, MP for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke:

"Last week, we learned of the decision made by the RCMP to reclassify rifles imported from Switzerland. Last fall, I tabled Motion M-452 in the House of Commons calling on our government to establish a permanent “Firearms Experts Technical Committee” to oversee such things as firearms reclassifications and other changes to the Firearms Act that have a direct effect on stakeholders. In June, I asked responsible firearms owners to co-sign my letter to the Minister of Public Safety calling for a moratorium on the RCMP’s ability to reclassify firearms. On Friday, the Minister wrote to Canadians about this matter stating “I want to assure you all options are on the table to fix this situation. I will also be taking steps to make sure this never happens again.” The time for action is now. The solution is clear. Support M-452 and establish an immediate moratorium.

Please, sign my e-petition to support M-452 at http://responsiblefirearmsreform.ca/Sto ... fiscation/


Sincerely,


Cheryl Gallant"

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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Seems the link to that petition I posted above is on/off.

It is: http://www.responsiblefirearmsreform.ca ... nfiscation

But if you don't get it, click on the "Stop Reclassification for confiscation" title in the top-centre of the screen and it will take you there.

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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:23 pm 
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i'm not saying that the NBO owner/operator is correct or wrong, in fact, he might just be posting the answer he received over the phone which really has no power of law, it wouldn't be the first time i come across inconsistencies, i remember a few years back when i asked a local police officer if it was legal to have extra lights just below a Jeep's windshield, he answered yes, and another officer from the same force another day answered no, so i guess questions like these get filtered when it comes across the desk of a crown prosecutor

seems reasonable to me that if you have the correct licensing in your possession when you mod from non PAL to PAL, then you should be ok, maybe i'm missing something here, but you haven't created something illegal, just controlled for which you have the proper license, i haven't seen any post on here where members have been told that this can't be legally done, and i'm pretty sure lots of people have already have done it

thanks for the reply Eric, it put things in perspective when you hear it from somebody who's dealing with this on a regular basis :)

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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:31 pm 
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The argument could be made that if someone was converting non-pal guns into pal rated firearms they would need a manufactures license at least if they were doing this as a business. An individual can legally build their own gun from scratch or from a demilled parts kit. You can even build a non-restricted semi auto sten.

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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:23 pm 
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similar question , if a person has an under 500fps airgun eg: 2240 and mods it to a carbine is the owner required to have a pal even though there is no registry any more or will a pol suffice?


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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:47 pm 
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FRTs class a 2240 as a pistol, so although a (now) carbine it remains a pistol just as the carbines built on a revolver frame remain a pistol.
Double worm can there.

RPAL doesn't cover it because the gun isn't a "firearm" in FRTs. POL might provided you were Restricted rated and:
It would have to be reclassified and in that process you would very likely (should you choose to accept the challenge) be encouraged under threat of conviction to possess and RPAL already to own it, a registration by way of the reclass, and an ATT to take it only to a range - and now you get to double lock it too.
Better to start with a rifle tube for the 30$ it costs...

A PAL is required for any modded gun used where the shooter has ANY chance of having it scrutinized by those chrony buyin enforcers. Bylaws and everything else that applies to firearms now apply to that previously freely used airgun. Bragging your modded gun shoots 500+ can buy you an unwarranted home visit with one phone call dialled collect from an angry payphone. Play safe.


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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:55 pm 
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Thanks for clearing that up.


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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:04 am 
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blarg wrote:
...because the gun isn't a "firearm" in FRTs.


Being in the FRT is not particularly relevant- if the gun meets the criteria for a "Restricted" product, then an R-PAL (or R-POL) would be required, even if it is not technically referenced in the FRT- as in it has never been officially classified. If someone wants to obtain a ATT to move such a product around, then they would need an FRT reference in order to obtain the permit to move it.

Technically speaking, any gun can be classified by a recognized "Verifier" who can submit their assessment to the CFC, and if a product that was formerly only available (i.e. the 2240) as a "deemed non-firearm" (under 500fps), the 'one-off' carbine/2240 would now be recorded in the appropriate legal classification- and should be added to the FRT by the CFC staff.

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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:11 pm 
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AirGunEric wrote:
Being in the FRT is not particularly relevant- if the gun meets the criteria for a "Restricted" product, then an R-PAL (or R-POL) would be required, even if it is not technically referenced in the FRT- as in it has never been officially classified. If someone wants to obtain a ATT to move such a product around, then they would need an FRT reference in order to obtain the permit to move it.


I disagree that it is not relevant, primarily because the frts are the first line of identification for law enforcement.
That is, if they get a call about shooting in someone's backyard they may simply seize the gun immediately, or look it up before doing so.
This could be as innocent as an annoyed neighbor who will remain anonymous, but brings down weight of law with their call.
In the event that a 2240 is identified as a pistol classed "non-firearm" and law enforcement notes a stock and rifle barrel, the shooter does not have sufficient protection from being charged by holding an rpal alone. By discharging a "pistol" exceeding energy and muzzle velocity they immediately (ok, this may takes weeks for testing, and charges to be laid) have discharged a restricted weapon outside confines of an approved range.
The life changing charges can pile up quickly from there.

The verifier form does offer reclass checkbox for this scenario:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/form ... 47-eng.pdf
In the event an airgun falls into restricted class, I would speculate (speculating here, go easy) rcmp would require testing beyond a simple verifier's submission and owner had better already hold RPAL to hold the gun in question. Once through the process of reclassification the owner would be tagged via registration to that gun and presumably understand the consequences of firing it outside the range. The registration database would then precede a FRT lookup and they would know about it prior to seeing the gun (people control rather than gun control). It is important to know the weight of one's actions without this process.

unsafe storage
negligent discharge
possession of restricted weapon without license
bylaw infractions
<insert criminal code generated charge here>

My point is simply that the risks of that extra barrel or home tune hold great life changing consequences.
Simply dieseling a springer has more consequences then busting a spring...
In Canada, you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent with regard to firearm offences.
The cost of that proof is yours even if you win and the cost can be life long.


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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:04 pm 
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blarg wrote:
That is, if they get a call about shooting in someone's backyard they may simply seize the gun immediately, or look it up before doing so.


The problem is that now you are changing the conditions of things- in your example, someone is shooting the gun and law enforcement is at the door.

Possessing a product with the appropriate license based on what it should be classified as (an RPAL product) but has yet to be entered in the FRT is one thing- shooting such a product and not following the proper law/protocol as would be applicable is another thing- as in these are two different things that are inter-related.

Obviously, if an R-PAL or presumably R-PAL rated product is shot outside the legal framework for shooting an RPAL product (i.e. in someone's suburban backyard), this is clearly in violation of the law. The FRT classification or lack thereof really has nothing to do with it. 'Mixing and matching' things is not serving to clarify the role of the FRT- which, as you did note, is a reference tool for law enforcement- but it is not the "law" per se. Absence or presence of any particular gun in the FRT means law enforcement may be at a loss as to what to do- likely ending up in the product being taken for testing and classification- and if such a product falls into the "RPAL" category obviously any handling of it (including storing. transporting and shooting it) better be within the letter of the law.

Likewise, making a 600fps potato cannon in your backyard, which is not entered in the FRT, is not some sort of "limbo" state product- it would be, depending on its barrel length, caliber and such as some sort of "firearm" requiring one type of license or another and appropriate storage, transportation and shooting environment/conditions applicable to such a classification. The "lack" of a classification of it in the FRT neither renders the owner/operator a safe haven or a state of guilt, only in a state of needing to prove they did follow all applicable laws/licensing. The point is that the FRT is a reference tool, not a "bible".

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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:21 pm 
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I don't mean to muddy the waters with my example, it's true that FRTs, classifications and regulations play absolutely no bearing for a home made automatic 50bmg chambered weapon provided the owner simply sits and giggles at their accomplishment and never let it see light of day nor inform anyone it exists.
I'm not changing the conditions, rather offering likely scenario where all this becomes important.
Chances are better that a modded gun will be shot then not.
It's only illegal when one gets caught and law is applied in judgement.


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 Post subject: Re: non Pal into PAL
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:33 pm 
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Break the law - suffer the consequences.

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