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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:31 am 
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rsterne wrote:
I think this will prove to be an effective short range Grouse gun.... It doesn't have the smack of a powderburner, but if I can get decent patterns with the #8 shot I think it will do the job.... Bob


I think you will find the 8's shedding velocity pretty rapidly. You are quite correct in it being a short range gun`~ hopefully not too short....

How does the inside diameter of your brass cases compare to i.d. of a .410 hull? There's actually quite a bit of a stepdown in dia on a high brass plastic .410 hull- which would explain your shot cups splitting from the rear.
I've found powder burning .410's to pattern much better with the nylon shot cup, compared to just a basic under-shot wad....

Kind of interested in the pattern density you'll get in a 30" circle at 20 yds with the 8's using the current set-up...

Regards,

Doc Sharptail

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:04 am 
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Yes, the all brass shells are thinner, so are a larger ID than a plastic hull.... They have slightly larger wads for them, which is what I got.... However the plastic shot cups are no different, so that may be the reason they are splitting, although I'm running MUCH less pressure than a PB does.... Many of the cups are blown through the center.... I'm thinking it may be because with the single ball touching only in the middle of the shot cup the base just shears away with no mass to resist it around the edges.... I'm hoping that the #8 shot, which will fill out the corners well, may not show the blown centers in the shot cups, but of course I can't test that in my shop, it will have to wait until the spring.... For my velocity testing I found the most consistency using the fibre base wad, then the three 000 Buck, then the overshot card.... Velocity variation at constant pressure is only a few fps, less than 1/2% ES.... with the occasional wild reading, I assume from the wad passing through the Chrony, or the three balls not travelling tight together through the sensors.... It was hopeless close to the muzzle, pretty good across the shop (most of the time)....

Bob

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:37 pm 
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Image

Today was quite a day.... After a couple of years of planning and a year of work, I shot my Hayabusa .457 for the first time today, and saw over 550 FPE.... I tested three kinds of ammo, found the maximum that the gun would do at 3600 psi with all three, and found two great shot strings.... The bullets used were a 143 gr. roundball, and two Lee bullets, a 216 gr. RN and a 336 gr. FN.... In order to find the velocity plateau I had to use the two 3" hammer springs like I did on the .410 shotgun, and here are the maxed out results....

143 gr. RB - 1101 fps (385 FPE)
216 gr. RN - 993 fps (473 FPE)
336 gr. FN - 859 fps (551 FPE)

Needless to say, all the work and frustration has paid off and I've got a pretty big smile right now.... I put the 4.5" long 0.072" wire spring back in and shot the following strings....

Image

With the spring just shy of coil bind the roundball showed the first shot fastest at 1070 fps.... The 216 gr. RN had the 2nd shot fastest at 960 fps.... Both bullets had 5 shots before falling more than 4% below the peak.... With the 336 gr. FN bullet I got a very nice 7 shot string peaking at 815 fps (496 FPE).... That string averaged 800 fps (477 FPE) with an efficiency of 0.96 FPE/CI.... I then backed the preload down a turn and shot another string with the 216 gr. RN and got 8 shots peaking at 929 fps (414 FPE) and averaging 913 fps (400 FPE) with an efficiency of 0.99 FPE/CI from 3600 psi down to 2400....

To say I'm pleased with this performance is an understatement.... I was hoping this gun would break 500 FPE, I never though it would break 550, nor did I think it would give me 8 shots at 400 FPE on a fill.... Time to just bask in the glow of satisfaction for a while.... I need a break.... and a drink.... :mrgreen:

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Wow!!

:shock: :D


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:35 pm 
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Congratulations Bob! A job well done (and a drink well deserved).


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:52 am 
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EverHopeful wrote:
Congratulations Bob! A job well done (and a drink well deserved).


X2!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:14 am 
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Very nice work there Bob congrates upon breaking the 500fpe area. Figured the 457might fall shy by a few fpe. Surpasing something is always a great feeling.
And nothing wrong with the shot count and efficientcy either. Definitely enjoy the drink. Well earned indeed. :drinkers:



Psst.. :shock: ..Tin tube 4200psi fill will get you into the 800fpe area.. :lol: ..just saying...... :wink: :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:11 pm 
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I can see getting into the 700s with 4500 psi and full size porting.... but 800 FPE in a .45 cal?.... That would be pretty impressive.... Have you ever seen/done it?.... I'm already at a 30" barrel, and the porting and pressure are the limiting factors.... I can already increase the hammer strike beyond the point where no further gains take place.... the gun is flowing WFO....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:16 pm 
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This will give you an idea of the power.... I taped four clear Cedar 2x4s together and it blew through two of them and imbedded completely in the third....

Image

This was the 336 gr. Lee FN travelling at 792 fps (468 FPE), which is the first shot of my 7 shot string.... Here are the exit holes and bullet in the third 2x4 (edge view)....

Image

The 2x4s were a foot long and taped tightly together at both ends with duct tape, and the 3rd one where the bullet stopped was split from end to end.... They were against a solid backstop to prevent movement....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:42 pm 
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:shock:

That's a pretty impressive demonstration.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:57 pm 
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Doc, just a correction.... It is #7 1/2 shot I bought, not #8.... should be better considering the lower muzzle velocity of an airgun....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:51 pm 
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rsterne wrote:
Doc, just a correction.... It is #7 1/2 shot I bought, not #8.... should be better considering the lower muzzle velocity of an airgun....

Bob


Birdshot :mrgreen: ...specifically grouse shot. Now my interest is up keenly! Move that pattern board back another 5 yds :wink:

Regards,

Doc Sharptail

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:54 pm 
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Shows how long this project has been on the go.... I dug out my 25# jug of shot that I bought a year ago and sure enough, it was # 7 1/2.... put a smile on my face, for sure.... Too bad I have to wait until the spring to pattern this thing.... :(

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:51 pm 
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About a decade ago there was a gent out of Sweeden or Switzerland that produced a 45 chuking lead out at 740ish from a 4200psi charge contained within a Tin tube. But he kinda dropped off that Euro forum. So no idea as to where he went with his testing. His goal was breaking 800fpe from a 36" bbl.

With your wads blowing out. Did you consider putting a shot card in the bottom of your casing to stiffen things up for that air blast thru the port?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:20 pm 
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I guess 740 isn't out of the question if the barrel was long enough.... My model predicts a maximum of over 1100 FPE possible with a 36" barrel at 4500 psi and bore-sized porting, but drop the barrel back to 24" that drops in proportion to 740 FPE.... It's not so much what can be done, as a "lofty goal" that I've never seen anyone reach yet.... The prediction for my Hayabusa was 486 FPE with a 24" barrel and 3/8" ports at 3600, or 608 FPE with a 30", and I did 551 FPE with the 30", so within 10%.... That's about as close as anyone comes, so I think the model is pretty good at predicting a number you could be really proud of if you reached it.... :mrgreen:

I haven't tried a shot card under the plastic shot cup, but I did try a 1/4" fibre base wad under it, and it still blew the bottom out.... I suspect it has more to do with the single lead ball shape pushing against the center during acceleration leaving the edge of the cup base open to a shearing action.... I don't think it will happen with the #7 1/2 shot.... but I guess we'll see in the spring....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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