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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:52 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Ottawa
I happen to have a spring and a short piston out of a Phantom...I don't have a Phantom at the moment, full power or 495 to compare it with.

I've been told it was a full power spring but I've also been told that a full power spring had 36 coils and was 10.250" long....here are the measurements I took with my digital calipers...

0.120" wire
0.725" OD
9.250" Long

33 coils (and a bit) long

Apparently these are the possible combinations that are available...

long piston and short spring=495
short piston with hole in it and long spring=495
short piston with NO hole in it and long spring=full power

and then this odd one....long piston with NO hole in it and long spring=full power but shorter travel on cocking lever?

Jim


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:41 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Mt detuned Phantom from many years ago had 36 coils of .122" wire and a long piston.

http://my.tbaytel.net/coopers/QuestPhantom/review.html


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:20 am 
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Location: United States
Didn't you post a similar Q earlier? Spring length will shorten with use, so people use the OD, wire dia, and # of coils. A typical oem full power spring is ~.730" OD with ~.123" wire, and ~36 coils. A full power piston is ~5-7/8" (150mm). Being made in china all these specs vary, but typically pretty close.
Yours is probably the mid strength spring, closer to .118. So a .177 will need more reducing than a .22, so a 22 might have two mods, where a 177 might have three mods or two and 095 wire. Just guessing, and I imagine they experimented with different combos so no doubt there are different versions out there. Then there's the nitro guns which as far as I know consist of a lighter spring, which is still rather strong, then no doubt a hole and/or long piston. So as far as I know there is just the one light nitro and two lighter coils. I only know the coil count of full power springs, but I imagine they experimented with a variety of lengths as well. I also wonder how they determine what is 500fps. Obviously a 500fps 177 will break that with a 4.0gr pellet. Makes me wonder if you could bump the power and say I only shoot these xx super heavies which are just under 500, or do the cops carry xx weight pellets around with them to test your gun?
Imo a hole in the piston is the worst possible way to reduce power. The best way is to use a full power piston and spring, but with less preload on the spring. Or that and a lighter spring. Having the short piston and reduced preload makes the gun incredibly easy to cock, shoots very nice and much quieter. It's also much easier on the scope, which is the opposite of what a hole in the piston does.
And remember what I said about the two different Phantoms, because the pistons are not interchangeable. I'm guessing you plan on getting a 500 model and using said piston and spring to bump it up. If so I'd get a new main seal and tune it a bit to get the most power and accuracy.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:49 am 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Hi Chevota,

Many years ago they added an energy limit to the current 500fps velocity limit for non-PAL airguns.

152.4m/s = 500 fps
5.7 Joules = 4.2 fpe

Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:58 am 
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
TCooper wrote:
Hi Chevota,

Many years ago they added an energy limit to the current 500fps velocity limit for non-PAL airguns.

152.4m/s = 500 fps
5.7 Joules = 4.2 fpe

Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules

Sorry, that is in correct, this is directly from RCMP. 1. Air guns that are firearms for purposes of both the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code

These are air guns with both a high muzzle velocity (greater than 152.4 metres or 500 feet per second)and a high muzzle energy (greater than 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot-pounds). The "muzzle velocity" is the speed of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, normally expressed in metres per second or feet per second. The "muzzle energy" is the energy of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, expressed in joules or foot-pounds. Air guns need to meet both standards to be classified as firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act.

It is fps AND not or.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:18 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
The Criminal Code of Canada is incorrect? Section III is the Firearms Act. I just checked the current 2015 written CCC and it agrees with this online link. The RCMP enforce the CCC, as well as other legislation & laws. This is where they get their authority.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... .html#h-37

The confusing part of this definition is the second word "or" in section 84(3)(d)(i). If you read subsection 3 from the top it will clear things up for you. If either the energy or velocity case is satisfied then the weapon is not considered a firearm for the listed sections at the beginning of 84(3).


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:49 pm 
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Too add to the confusion check this out :S

https://nfa.ca/news/supreme-court-canada-rules-air-guns-are-firearms


I think it applies more to storage

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:10 pm 
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DigitalFx33 wrote:
Too add to the confusion check this out :S

https://nfa.ca/news/supreme-court-canada-rules-air-guns-are-firearms


I think it applies more to storage


Nothing has changed in many years. The laws were there long ago but never enforced to any degree. CAREFULLY read section 84 and the rest of the Firearms Act and you will see that only some sections do not apply to non-PAL airguns.
We have beaten up this topic for many years. Here are old postings of mine from 2008 and 2010. It explains what seems to be "new" knowledge.
post163039.html?hilit=criminal code#p163039

post241628.html?hilit=criminal code#p241628

Some details even back to 2007.
post129104.html?hilit=criminal code#p129104

Some details even back to 2006.
post13540.html?hilit=criminal code#p13540
post12858.html?hilit=criminal code#p12858

The definitions have been there for a long time but no airgunner would want to push the topic and get it all enforced. I think the 214fps definition was once called "causing serious bodily harm".

Very sorry for the topic hi-jack. We should have started another topic.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:00 pm 
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
My apologies as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:52 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Ottawa
Chevota wrote:
Spring length will shorten with use, so people use the OD, wire dia, and # of coils. A typical oem full power spring is ~.730" OD with ~.123" wire, and ~36 coils. A full power piston is ~5-7/8" (150mm). Being made in china all these specs vary, but typically pretty close.
Yours is probably the mid strength spring, closer to .118. So a .177 will need more reducing than a .22, so a 22 might have two mods, where a 177 might have three mods or two and 095 wire. Just guessing, and I imagine they experimented with different combos so no doubt there are different versions out there.


Actually I picked up 2 short pistons with the holes plugged and two springs...one measures out at 9.250" and the other measures out at 9" even, so I figured that one had been used longer....In my other post asking about spring dimensions, O.D's, and lengths, I had one reply which said the full power spring was 10.250" a full inch more than what I have, but same gauge wire...but I thought mine were full power. Just curious, will have to wait and see what is in my new Phantom when it gets here....

I really appreciate the feedback...now if I can only retain half of what I read...

Jim


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:43 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:24 pm
Posts: 667
Location: Dowling ,ontario
Roussfarm,
I have also found the springs in the phantoms to be different than specs given. Depending on the year of manufacture. I think your best bet would be to order new springs from scopes and ammo or use what you have and shim the spring within 1/8" from coil bind.then there's the other option of putting a gas ram from the trail np again from scopes and ammo. I would go the np route if I were to do it over.

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